Is whether someone uses clipless v. flats a reasonable measure of anything?

[Dantheman]

I've heard people at my LBS who say they currently ride clipless, but need to learn to ride flats because it'll make them better and faster riders in downhill.

The prevalence of clipless pedals on the WC DH circuit would seem to make that a dubious idea. Neither pedal type is going to make you faster on it's own.

But with regards to technology - flats, I don't think, have changed all that much. A flat platform with pins. Although I haven't been riding them too terribly long... so maybe old flats sucked ass?

Key to all of it: the shoes

New low-profile flats are definitely way better than the old stuff, but the shoes have improved more.

The way I see it is that you have two sets of muscles in your legs, one for pushing and one for pulling. The pushing ones are definitely stronger, but without clipless you are leaving some power and endurance on the table.

No one actually produces any significant amount of power pulling up on the upstroke. Exercise physiologists have studied this to death. It's occasionally useful as a skill move to prevent a stall over a technical obstacle, but doing it consistently stroke-after-stroke is actually less efficient.

The irony is that it's more expensive to get a proper set up with flats than with clipless these days.

It is pretty silly what you can spend on a pair of flat pedals these days. Though, things like Chesters and Diety Compounds work just as well and are the rare trifecta of light, strong and cheap.

Maybe you're reading too much into it. I don't think they're really using pedals as the sole gauge of what group you should be in, but for casual/beginner riders, many of whom think "oh no clips are scary and I'd fall over" it's probably an ok guideline for self selection.

Yeah, this. It's just a broad spectrum screening tool. If it was a ski clinic the "Advanced" category might include a mention of fat rockered skis. Having fat rockered skis doesn't make someone "advanced," but noobs are pretty unlikely to have them.

[XXX-er]

After having my spd cleat and pedal freeze up at around zero in the snow I would definatley go with flats on a fat bike in winter

[evdog]

The way I see it is that you have two sets of muscles in your legs, one for pushing and one for pulling. The pushing ones are definitely stronger, but without clipless you are leaving some power and endurance on the table. Plus, the ability to jump the bike around and stay attached are enhanced with clips. I live in the mountains where most rides involve some serious climbing, and virtually no serious cross country riders use flat pedals. To me flats have always symbolized that it is more about the down for that rider. Personal choice, but I don't feel I have reasonable choice but to use clipless.

It is is harder to be one with your bike with flats. There are certain situations where that may not be your primary concern, but not in my world. Is there any reason to use flats other than having the ability to part with your bike on short notice?

You sound like one of those riders who never gave flats enough of a chance

The main benefit of flats is getting your foot back on the pedal when you dab while going down some steep nasty chute, not getting the foot off the pedal. How often do you hear "serious cross country riders" say they have no trouble getting their foot unclipped instantly when needed? Every single one of them will say that. But how many of them can get clipped back in going down that nasty chute? Some will. Some won't, and some of those will eat shit because of it. Of course many of them will be walking down said chute to begin with.

Those muscles that push and pull? When you ride flats you use those muscles that push, to push down on the pedals going over drops, jumps and technical terrain. Once you learn how to ride flats properly, this is how you become one with your bike. That and 5.10s stick like glue to good pedals. People who say it's harder to be one with the bike on flats haven't spent enough time on flats to learn how to ride them properly. Clipless do provide some extra efficiency, but I read once that is only about 12%. Great for racing, but meh for riding for fun. I'd be a lot better off if I trained and actually got in good shape than gain 12% of mediocre fitness by putting clipless back on the bike. I'd probably much more than that 12% back once the trail turned to hike-a-bike anyways, which there seems to be a lot of on mountain trails.

Places I still prefer clipless are riding singlespeed, and when doing rides with steep technical climbs where the ability to pull up during power moves makes a lot of difference. Otherwise I really don't see the benefit. Great if they work for you, but don't assume flats won't work too.

[muted]

I'm trying to do more XC on flats and it's annoying. One big thing is clearance. I could never figure out why there are so many pedal strikes all over the trails, now I'm on flats, I'm fucking hitting every one. I get it now. And yes I have low profile pedals and even went to 170mm cranks last fall. I'm not as efficient if I have to stop pedalling to avoid strikes, and here in Moab there's a lotta places to hit yer pedals.

But yes there are some benefits, that's why I'm trying it. For full XC riding though, clipless for sure.

[RootSkier]

Maybe you're reading too much into it. I don't think they're really using pedals as the sole gauge of what group you should be in, but for casual/beginner riders, many of whom think "oh no clips are scary and I'd fall over" it's probably an ok guideline for self selection.

This is probably the most correct answer, though pisteoff is still winning the thread.

[adrenalated]

I ride flats because:

1) they prevent me from becoming "one with my bike" when I beater

and 2) they're more comfortable for drinking in

I guess that kinda proves the point of that original breakdown.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
New low-profile flats are definitely way better than the old stuff, but the shoes have improved more.

I'll take your word for it... but hasn't 5.10 been making bike shoes with their Stealth rubber for at least 15 years? Maybe more? Seems like that is *still* the bellwether with regards to flat-pedal shoes.

[skaredshtles]

The way I see it is that you have two sets of muscles in your legs, one for pushing and one for pulling. The pushing ones are definitely stronger, but without clipless you are leaving some power and endurance on the table. Plus, the ability to jump the bike around and stay attached are enhanced with clips. I live in the mountains where most rides involve some serious climbing, and virtually no serious cross country riders use flat pedals. To me flats have always symbolized that it is more about the down for that rider. Personal choice, but I don't feel I have reasonable choice but to use clipless.

It is is harder to be one with your bike with flats. There are certain situations where that may not be your primary concern, but not in my world. Is there any reason to use flats other than having the ability to part with your bike on short notice?

Maybe this is the big difference for me... mt biking has NEVER been serious business. I'm merely in it for the entertainment...

[jackstraw]

It's occasionally useful as a skill move to prevent a stall over a technical obstacle

That is the only reason I still ride clipped in. We don't have much vert, we just have short steep ups and techy granite gardens to manuever around. We stall a lot on our terrain. I could probably pull it off with flats, but I'm old and stuck in my ways with what works.

So when my kid first rode flats with 5/10's for the first time he twisted his foot to 'release' from the flat pedal...that was pretty telling on how damn good flats and good shoes had become.

And XXX, I rode flats on the fatty for 4 or so years and had those freeze up also. Couldn't keep my foot on the pedal as it looked like that bike in the EC thread. It sucked.

[skaredshtles]

That is the only reason I still ride clipped in. We don't have much vert, we just have short steep ups and techy granite gardens to manuever around. We stall a lot on our terrain. I could probably pull it off with flats, but I'm old and stuck in my ways with what works.

There ain't nothin' wrong with that. And this is probably the *only* thing that I have had trouble getting used to on flats. I apparently used to use the clipless to assist in body-Englishing over slow, technical climby stuff.

Although I'm at an age now, and in the right shape, that I simply push my bike up all that shit now.

So when my kid first rode flats with 5/10's for the first time he twisted his foot to 'release' from the flat pedal...that was pretty telling on how damn good flats and good shoes had become.

Yup - the shoes are critical. I rode for about 4 months on my old hiking boots, and while they worked... the 5.10s are a night and day improvement.

[Dantheman]

I'm trying to do more XC on flats and it's annoying. One big thing is clearance. I could never figure out why there are so many pedal strikes all over the trails, now I'm on flats, I'm fucking hitting every one. I get it now. And yes I have low profile pedals and even went to 170mm cranks last fall. I'm not as efficient if I have to stop pedalling to avoid strikes, and here in Moab there's a lotta places to hit yer pedals.

But yes there are some benefits, that's why I'm trying it. For full XC riding though, clipless for sure.

Honestly, I ride clipless for the downs as much as the ups. Sorta the same reason I use burly ski bindings with lots of elastic travel: Probability of injury is greater from a pre-release/slipping a pedal at speed.

I'll take your word for it... but hasn't 5.10 been making bike shoes with their Stealth rubber for at least 15 years? Maybe more? Seems like that is *still* the bellwether with regards to flat-pedal shoes.

I found this: http://www.outdoorinov8.com/fivetenhistory.html

Looks like you're pretty much right. Started prototyping in 2000, Sam Hill won the world champs on them in 2006. I only started riding in 2007, but I don't remember them being the norm then and the "5.10>>everything else" days came later. I could be wrong, though.

[skaredshtles]

Honestly, I ride clipless for the downs as much as the ups. Sorta the same reason I use burly ski bindings with lots of elastic travel: Probability of injury is greater from a pre-release/slipping a pedal at speed.

Interesting take... I figure probability is less 'cause it's easier to get clear of your bike in a crash. Although I rarely had trouble, even with clipless (Time ATACs) getting clear of the bike in a crash. And to be honest, with the 5.10s, slipping a pedal is pretty much not a thing.

Regardless - I'm at a point now that crashing is a really bad idea, all the way around...

<snip>. I only started riding in 2007, but I don't remember them being the norm then and the "5.10>>everything else" days came later. I could be wrong, though.

Frikkin' n00B.

I believe that even back then - 5.10 >>>> everything else. Hell - I think "everthing else" was fucking Vans. I know people that still swear by Vans for flats. Probably 'cause they never tried the 5.10s.

[Mudfoot]

[QUOTE=No one actually produces any significant amount of power pulling up on the upstroke. Exercise physiologists have studied this to death. It's occasionally useful as a skill move to prevent a stall over a technical obstacle, but doing it consistently stroke-after-stroke is actually less efficient.[/QUOTE]

It is not just pulling up, it's spinning as apposed to just pushing down on your pedals. If you eliminated cleats and pedal clips you could make the set up lighter. If it is actually "less efficient" and does not provide a power/endurance advantage why does every road and cross country mountain bike racer in the world use clipless pedals?

[skaredshtles]

<snip> If it is actually "less efficient" and does not provide a power/endurance advantage why does every road and cross country mountain bike racer in the world use clipless pedals?

Because racers are dumb.

[dft]

It is is harder to be one with your bike with flats. There are certain situations where that may not be your primary concern, but not in my world. Is there any reason to use flats other than having the ability to part with your bike on short notice?

lots and lots of best riders ride flats for different reasons, sam hill, every rampage rider. go ride the north short, mostly flats

[Name Redacted]

5.10's with some good flat pedals is almost harder to ditch than clips. Mine are like glue.

Flats increase efficiency of bar access post ride exponentially. Most bars have slippery hardwood or cement floors, which negates any advantage gained by riding in little ballet slippers with medal clips on the bottom. They becomes a serious safety hazard and can also ruin the floors in your own home. This is reason enough for me to avoid clipless pedals.

[bagtagley]

5.10 were a big enough improvement that they got away with the same fugly design for an eternity. They also bailed on the MTB market after the first year or so and then came back allegedly due to demand.

mt biking has NEVER been serious business. I'm merely in it for the entertainment...

This

[Mudfoot]

lots and lots of best riders ride flats for different reasons, sam hill, every rampage rider. go ride the north short, mostly flats

Yeah, and my usual rides are like a Red Bull Rampage run. Like I said, flats are generally used by riders that are more about the down.

[skaredshtles]

Yeah, and my usual rides are like a Red Bull Rampage run.

Like I said, flats are generally used by riders that are more about the down.

That's probably fair. And it's all due to climbing sucking.

[garuda]

Why are all racers (at least XC) riding clips? Power transfer. Carbon soled clipless shoes are efficient in transmitting the energy you apply into the pedals/cranks. And I find doing long rides with (five ten) platform shoes to be way more taxing on the feet, ankles and lower body in general. Platforms are fun but don't make a ton of sense for longer rides, imo.

[Dantheman]

And to be honest, with the 5.10s, slipping a pedal is pretty much not a thing.

True, I haven't worn flats for anything but dirt jumping in about 7 years and didn't have 5.10s when I did. Probably worth revisiting, but I just got some new X-Alp Enduro 5s.

[east or bust]

I'd tell that team to lick my gooch

[plugboots]

It's just a form thing to see if people have a clue or not. It doesn't mean anything. I remember a steeps camp thing I read ages ago, and it asked If I had a harness, and had done crevasse rescue, and yada, yada. Like that matters when you get off the tram at JH.

[skaredshtles]

Why are all racers (at least XC) riding clips? Power transfer. Carbon soled clipless shoes are efficient in transmitting the energy you apply into the pedals/cranks. And I find doing long rides with (five ten) platform shoes to be way more taxing on the feet, ankles and lower body in general. Platforms are fun but don't make a ton of sense for longer rides, imo.

I've not found 30 miles to be an issue with flats & 5.10s... but maybe longer rides would be? Those sorts of rides are probably behind me, anyways...

[babybear]

I'd like to use flats more for the simplicity of it all. so I don't have to switch pedals over when I want to ride to town in work or going out clothes [and am inevitably running late]

and for DH I think it has benefits, but damn every time I try to ride flats now I forget- particularly when I'm riding thru town at a stop or something and ghost pull up right into my handle bar. guess I might need to either stop riding high or just put my mind to it for a ride or two and get there

it is a bit weird that the clinic people put "comfy riding clipless" as a level, but I can kind of see it as an easy categorization. Although at a certain level it seems more challenging to me than clipless