Is whether someone uses clipless v. flats a reasonable measure of anything?

[Name Redacted]

you used to have to put your foot into a metal toe clip and pull up on a strap, some racers would use 2 straps, except for fixie riders with no freewheel and no brakes ... the clipless pedal has replaced toeclips

Amazing, but they still make em. You want a telemark comparison, there it is. They'll be the next big thing for hipster-fixies.

[skaredshtles]

I put flats on my road bike last season because I really only use it to ride between breweries anyway. I still end up passing spandisexuals on the bike path.

That can send Real Serious Roadies™ into fits of rage.

[skaredshtles]

Amazing, but they still make em. You want a telemark comparison, there it is. They'll be the next big thing for hipster-fixies.

Not only do they still make them... but you still SEE them with alarming regularity around here.

[El Chupacabra]

Amazing, but they still make em. You want a telemark comparison, there it is. They'll be the next big thing for hipster-fixies.

Traditional toe clips aren't a bad choice for a commuter pedal.

[Name Redacted]

That can send Real Serious Roadies™ into fits of rage.

That's the goal. They are bright green pedals on a red road bike, so quite the fashion statement.

[skaredshtles]

That's the goal. They are bright green pedals on a red road bike, so quite the fashion statement.

Bonus points if you're wearing cutoff jeans and an old AC/DC t-shirt.

[Ottime]

I thought i sucked because my Hardrock sucked. Now I know it is because I have flat pedals over a decade old. Good to know it is not my lack of technique or practice. I’d go out and buy clipless, but fear being too good.

BTW, it might have more to do with how much money you have to spend, and not your skill or riding style. I know it is hard to imagine for all the dentist (I’m just a receptionist at a dentist office), but not everyone can go out and spend a grand or five on a bike.

[XXX-er]

Not only do they still make them... but you still SEE them with alarming regularity around here.

yeah i've heard the old fucks who think clipless are dangerous and would rather ride toeclips, usually the same people who don't need powder skis or heelpieces

I can't think of too many good applications out side of being a fixie riding hipster and then they should be the metal Cinelli

https://www.amazon.ca/Power-Grips-Sp...ke+pedal+strap

I know a bike touring guide who swears by the power grip straps ^^ no strap to adjust just twist the ankle out wards to get out

[TahoeJ]

I have a friend who up until a few years ago was still rocking toeclips on his pedals. And he shreds - way harder than me and most riders. People would often see him and be kind of dumbfounded by the contrast. I was always asking him what's the deal but my skepticism didn't carry much weight when he's kicking my ass on the trails - both up and down.

[Name Redacted]

I had a friend who used to win local races wearing cutoff jeans and riding a fully-rigid steel frame bike but momma always said "Two wrongs don't make a right".

[Dantheman]

If flat pedals encouraged spastic flailing instead of clean technique, sure, this analogy would apply.

[/fistbump]

The soft-sole ones can make your feet sore on a long XC ride, but are probably just fine for dirt jumping.

Which is where you actually want a more flexible sole.

I have not pinstriped my shins since switching to clips.

This is a big one for me. Unless you ride with shin protection 100% of the time it is not a matter of if, but when and how often.

I ride flats when I think there's a lot of hike-a-bike involved.

There are quite a few clipless shoes that have good tread for hike-a-biking, and frankly IMO the tread on most 5.10 shoes sucks for hiking.

Of the folks that commit to flats and riding standing....

One of these things is orders of magnitude more important than the other....

SO many avid riders that sit and spin low gears can be very functional mtb riders but never really understand weighting, unweighting, bike body separation, and only leave the ground when they have made a terrible mistake.

Wait, what does sitting and spinning up climbs have to do with the descending skills in the rest of this sentence? Standing climbing outside of singlespeeding is dumb.

A lot of people ride with their pedal really far forward on clipless.

This is generally true, but most shoes allow you to run the cleats farther back.

Just chiming in here to say:

Adidas Trail Cross Terrex SL or Protect.

Adidas owns 5.10 and finally put their rubber on a shoe actually designed for adventure MTB riding, vs a sticky skate shoe that I would hate to be wearing more than 2 miles from a trailhead.

See, I don't get this. Much of the benefit of sticky rubber gets negated when you put a hiking shoe tread pattern on it. Some pins might not be making contact at all, they can get caught on the edges and crevices, etc. The ideal tread pattern for a flat pedal shoe is none at all, like racing slicks in motor racing.

I also like that my foot is always in the right place when clipped in. Again, I know it’s technique and practice, but modern pedals and sticky shoes make it so easy to get stuck in a weird spot or weird angle. I’d rather be riding the bronco with the middle of my foot on a clipless pedal and find the cleat than stuck in a weird position on a flat and try to unweight enough to change position.

Agreed.

The only place where I've found it "helps" my technique is forcing me to get better at low speed balance -- techy uphill sections, hairpins, etc. Sure, I could not dab when on flats, but I do because it's easy.

Besides being less likely to dab on ups, I've definitely ridden out of some downhill "Oh shit" moments riding clipless where I might have bailed on flats. Those moments absolutely expanded my envelope of control.

Why the fuck are they called clipless peddles when I'm clipped into them?!?!

The questionnaire could have been worded as "Do you refer to pedals that you clip into as "clip-ins" or "clipless"? and it would have been as or more effective as a noob screening tool It also wouldn't have spun up a discussion like this one.

That can send Real Serious Roadies™ into fits of rage.

Though not as effective as passing them on a MTB.

[RootSkier]

I also like that my foot is always in the right place when clipped in.

This is actually why I switched to flats. After a tibial plateau fracture, I would get terrible and very specific knee pain when clipped in, even after fiddling with foot position. So I switched to flats, and when I get that pain, I just move my foot a little and it goes away.

[skaredshtles]

yeah i've heard the old fucks who think clipless are dangerous and would rather ride toeclips, usually the same people who don't need powder skis or heelpieces

I know some old fucks who think the same about dropper posts.

If you dig deep enough, you'll find they are the *very* old-skool type that never even put a QR on their seat post, because why the fuck would you want to do that?

[tellybele]

All you have to know is the Missoula MTB 'scene'. Where the racers go in the 'snake, you can ride a CX-Fixt rig with 30c tires no prob. If you venture out and about in the valley then a 29er HT is pretty nice. If you have suspension on both sides of your bike then ~4%(pulled that number out of my anal cavity) of the trails are probably fun for you. I have ridden in every western state and have found that what Missoulians call tech is far from it. For example in the upper reaches of Lory near FC, most of the trails in Flag, all of the trails in Sedona, all of the trails in Nelson/Rossland, any trail in the Sierra, most in the NorthCoast Range, most of the OC are heaploads more 'techy' than what a typical newbie Missoulian MTB'r calls tech. MSO is hyper sensitive, so IMHO opinion, tech and rowdy are hella overused and not understood by 90% of MSO MTB'rs.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>

This is a big one for me. Unless you ride with shin protection 100% of the time it is not a matter of if, but when and how often.

I did this a couple times when I was using hiking boots, but so far, with 5.10s, it has not happened again. But yeah, I've considered shin guards just as cheap insurance.

There are quite a few clipless shoes that have good tread for hike-a-biking, and frankly IMO the tread on most 5.10 shoes sucks for hiking.

Really depends - loose conditions: 5.10 kinda sucks at HaB
Rock: awesome
Wet rock creek crossings: super-awesome

I never owned a pair of clipless shoes that had tread worth a shit for HaB, but that's mostly personal choice (Sidi and Giro).

Though not as effective as passing them on a MTB.

On flat pedals!

One drawback of the 5.10s that I have: they weigh about 8lbs each. Go in the drink a few times on a ride and they swell to, like 45lbs each...

[zion zig zag]

This is actually why I switched to flats. After a tibial plateau fracture, I would get terrible and very specific knee pain when clipped in, even after fiddling with foot position. So I switched to flats, and when I get that pain, I just move my foot a little and it goes away.

My shimano's have a ton of float in them. One of the reasons I went away from egg beaters (although I've sinced learned that I like the shimano's better in almost every way).

[kidwoo]

Mountain biking on flat pedals will will make you a better rider in terms of bike skills. It is not as efficient. It is not as fast. If you are a rider who is happy with terminal intermediate skills, and is most concerned with strava times, or racing, or competeing ect. there is no need to ride on platform pedals. If you are a rider who wants to really understand riding a bike through your feet and not your ass, learning to jump, pump, ect, riding flats will help you learn faster. Clipless pedals are a roadie cross over into MTB. Lowering my seat and riding flats were the two most important changes to my bike that opened the door to becoming a well rounded rider. If you want that in you game, that is the path. Those skill sets also come with another price tag. Shin gashes, and bigger crashes and likely injury, but the end game makes riding so much more fun, IMO it's totally worth it to regress a bit initially, over time you'll get way better and when you clip in again everything will be different.

Meh

The only thing riding flats does is teach you how to ride flats.

What some people call "bad clipless habits", I refer to as "utilizing the tools at my disposal"

If you want to practice pumping and efficiency go learn how to ride dirtjumps. Pedals don't matter.

[jm2e]

I think this thread is a great example of what that original message was trying to say:

1) If you're a beginner, AND you're having trouble with clipless pedals, it's normal. Consider flats because you'll have more fun.
2) If you've been at it for a while, AND you're still having trouble with clipless pedals, but you feel like you're getting better, it's normal. Stick with it. At this point bunny hopping and keeping your feet on the pedals when you land a jump is going to be way easier. And seriously, anyone cool around you is using them.
3) If you're good now, and you're STILL on clipless pedals, congratulations. You're in the club. Flame away. But, why the hell did you sign up for a mountain bike skills class?

[JerseyDave]

Meh

The only thing riding flats does is teach you how to ride flats.

What some people call "bad clipless habits", I refer to as "utilizing the tools at my disposal"

If you want to practice pumping and efficiency go learn how to ride dirtjumps. Pedals don't matter.

I did. On flats. Then i went back to trail riding clipped in and everything was different. I also learned some trials. On Flats. Then I went back to trail riding clipped in and everything was different. I also don't throw unplanned one footers when my cleats or springs start to wear.

[kidwoo]

I did. On flats. Then i went back to trail riding clipped in and everything was different. I also learned some trials. On Flats. Then I went back to trail riding clipped in and everything was different. I also don't throw unplanned one footers when my cleats or springs start to wear.

Me too. But flats didn't teach me how to pump or bunny hop. Learning how to pump or bunnyhop did.

[JerseyDave]

Me too.

FIFY. I know a lot of folks who learned how to bunny hop clipped in that can't bunny hop on platform pedals. I would argue they have not really mastered that skill and if they learned how to do it unclipped, they would be way more proficient and efficient when clipped back in. This, in a nutshell, is my point.

It's like learning Jiu Jitsu in the Gi, vs no gi. One is a tool that makes you better in the other. If you just train no gi you will miss a lot of detail the Gi will teach you. I digress....

[kidwoo]

FIFY. I know a lot of folks who learned how to bunny hop clipped in that can't bunny hop on platform pedals. I would argue they have not really mastered that skill and if they learned how to do it unclipped, they would be way more proficient and efficient when clipped back in. This, in a nutshell, is my point.

But if you can make it over the smoldering VW or whatever else you're trying to clear, what difference does it make? Why should you need to bunny hop as if you're on flat pedals if you're not on flat pedals?

The only reason I learned these things on flats were because clipless pedals didn't exist on bmx bikes when I was 8.

[JerseyDave]

But if you can make it over the smoldering VW or whatever else you're trying to clear, what difference does it make? Why should you need to bunny hop as if you're on flat pedals if you're not on flat pedals?

So go back to what I said before. If you are someone who enjoys the personal progression of learning and mastering skills, then flat pedals will help with that. If you are not and just want to ride trail and get over stuff as fast as possible and don't really care, then clippless obviously make that easier.....ride on and enjoy your day.

If i came to a smoldering VW on the trail I would want to have a bag full of skills to clear it with as much style and grace as possible, in my own personal idiom. Maybe try and nose bonk off the grill ornament, ride up the windshield, manual the roof, and drop, even and level, off the hatch back. Or I could granny up to it, spin like a whirly-gig in a last minute seated wheelie...slam my back tire into the bumper...claw my way up onto the roof and roll off the hatch with my saddle in my throat...arms locked out and nose into a fork crushing landing.

If ever I come across a burning car on a trail ride, I'll be glad I've spent some time at the DJs and Skate Park on flats so I can at least try to style that shit out.

[Sirshredalot]

But if you can make it over the smoldering VW or whatever else you're trying to clear, what difference does it make? Why should you need to bunny hop as if you're on flat pedals if you're not on flat pedals?

The only reason I learned these things on flats were because clipless pedals didn't exist on bmx bikes when I was 8.

You can hop higher, smoother, and farther if you are using good technique vs. yanking the saddle into your taint with the cleats. I think that's all Dave is saying.

[kidwoo]

You can hop higher, smoother, and farther if you are using good technique vs. yanking the saddle into your taint with the cleats. I think that's all Dave is saying.

I know. But you can do that same thing with clipless pedals, which is why I keep saying learning to do things better teaches you to do things better....pedal style doesn't matter. You can squat over the rear tire and spring up just the same.

It just amuses me when people think there's something holy about flat pedals. I still ride them on my stunt bike for tricks and occasionally on my other bikes but as far as what most people do in the woods on trail bikes, I still hold to my earlier statement, that flat pedals just teach you how to ride flat pedals. Anything you do on them is just as learnable clipped in. There are a lot of people that also say you NEED to learn how to ride in the woods on a hardtail. It can be fun and change how you look at lines but if you don't plan on using that as your primary tool, you might be better served just learning how to get better on what is. Truth be told, since the 5.10 thing happened there's really not much difference in how I ride either. I yank up with my feet with flat pedals all the time.

I've just seen a lot of friends sort of newish to mountainbiking force themselves to put flat pedals on their trail bikes because someone else told them all of the above, then they go back to their clipless setup with the reaction of having wasted a lot of their riding time.

That's all.