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  1. #26
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    more parking for BC on 2 by jim hill would be a win and more parking for BC access on 90 (expand hayak and gold creek sno parks). Seems like something could work out of salmon la sac but its on the low side. I would love to see something like Ruby on 20 but that is probably too close to the park or wildeness. Expanding crystal seems like the easiest option logistically but the road needs improvement too.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    Castle and Goat Creek drainage

    North facing, largely clear bowl, elevation 4600-6600. There's a mining claim in there as well along this N. facing bowl.
    Quote Originally Posted by ridinshockgun View Post
    Isn't the N side of Castle in the Norse Peak wilderness?
    That looks like it could be an excellent area. What about north of the Norsepeak wilderness near Noble Knob? Already got what looks like a solid access road, already has a history of being logged heavily, lots of intermediate level skiing terrain, base area could be in the 4200 - 4500' level, summit around 6000'. There would potentially be a lot of BC ski access from this spot as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BeardedClam View Post
    What is this, turns all year? This is what snowmobiles and timersleds are good for, getting away from dyna'teryx yuppies
    That's all well and good, but it doesn't help solve the chronic crowding issues at PNW resorts. Also, most people probably have no business skiing in the backcountry. (You should have lots of firsthand knowledge of this...) I don't think encouraging more people to access the backcountry is the right solution.

    You can't just cry out for more access on FS land. They are underfunded as it is. You need to contact your legislature to overturn and fight against sierra club legislation and be able to fund those road improvements by private timber companies using FS land to log and having them pay for road improvements. The FS road infrastructure is falling apart as it is. They are not going to pay to plow roads when that money could...I don't know... be spent to replace the W.F. White river bridge, or atleast remove it from standing mid channel, to name one of the multi million dollar problems this national forest faces. It is a 150' span, with an additional 150' on both sides that have been reclaimed, and it is comical that instead of doing anything about it, the're plan is to orphan that road system so that it is 'wilderness' without the designation.

    The system in place is broken and what this national forest needs to do is run itself like a working forest in Idaho or Montana. Use the business model that the feds have been pigeon holed into, and use it to fix the infrastructure that exists. It is so prohibitively expensive to log timber in our forest currently, that the N.B. district's past two timber offerings have received no bids.
    Agreed 100%. The Forest is broken. I'm hoping that this discussion can lead to some kind of positive action to fix some of these issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andyski View Post
    Isn’t a crucial step identifying developers who might actually have interest? Who is our Oberti that we could support? There HAVE to be people out there who have kicked tires over the years and might be a bit more encouraged if a vocal group of supporters could be counted on to balance the concerns.

    Without people with a shit ton of money and a high risk tolerance, there’s no development happening anyway outside of existing ski areas.

    Maybe people rally around a particular possibility and drum up some attention for it?

    The commercial ski area track obviously differs from the approach needed for BC access, where plowing/access is a state/government issue exclusively. In that case, I’m with Norse: go support CBA.
    I personally am focused on more lift served skiing in more areas, however I think BC skiers and Resort skiers need to come together and support more access for both user groups. It is not in the best interest of BC skiers to oppose more resort development.

    In terms of money... there is quite a bit in Seattle. I would imagine there are some mags out there only 2-3 steps removed from passionate skiers who are very wealthy. Have a cohesive message with very specific focus I think would help attract the interest of someone.

    On the flip side, perhaps the approach is more on the non-profit side of the world? Or maybe corporate stock/shares? That's how many of the current PNW areas got funding - selling shares to local skiers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster Highmen View Post
    What about being within a couple hours drive of the major Puget Sound cities? Financial viability there too.
    The above discussed areas near Norse Peak/Crystal would meet that objective. Also, any ski areas in the Lake Wenatchee area would only add another 30 - 40 minutes of driving past Stevens. So might not be the best for south Seattle area folks (for day skiing, but weekend trips would be no problem) , but areas to the north that are rapidly growing (Marysville/Smokey Point/Everett/Bothel/Lynnwood) it would be a reasonable drive for day skiing, especially if the skiing experience was better than Stevens.

    Quote Originally Posted by ridinshockgun View Post
    Ooohhhhh yes. FS 6210 is also right there

    Having pushed a bicycle along Garland ridge North to Basalt Ridge on hot summer day..... there is some good terrain out that way.

    All 7,000'+






    Further North (Devil's Smokestack) of that and I presume still south of the wilderness boundary....

    ~7,400'


    Yeah, I think that area would be rad. Guessing it probably gets around 300" of snowfall on an average winter and a lot more sun. Probably would have a ski experience closer to some of the better areas in Colorado and Montana.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier View Post
    Cronic over crowding of parking lots, slopes, lodges, at ski areas, leading to a significantly degraded and frustrating experience.
    Sometimes crowding can be so severe, skiing on slopes is dangerous. Other times, it means parking is completely unavailable.
    Inadequate road infrastructure to all but I90 resorts leads to congested and risky driving conditions.
    Thats a hard argument to sell.

    Skiing in the PNW on holiday weekend with good snow is still significantly less congested, frustrating, and dangerous as the same day at Summit Co, Mammoth, Whistler, Tahoe, LCC, etc... and all of those areas are super successful and expanding boundaries without addressing the parking and traffic issue.

    The "it's too crowded" reasoning will fall on deaf ears.

    I'm all for new inbounds terrain, new resorts, new BC access.

    The way to do that is with $$$$$$ resort development.

    USFS and WSP don't give a shit how long the chair 2 line is Saturday at 10am.


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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmokes View Post
    New area: we need chubbies here like in NZ. Think Sahara (?) club. Few rope tows. Some clubs are family oriented with mellow terrain while for those who wish to go more interesting terrain has their own club to join. Affordable for members and/or require work party and charge more for the “guests”. Small boutique shit will always has it’s allure. Think of micro brewery’s popularity.
    there is one already - Meany Lodge.

    Figure out how to effectively run something out of Holden? Not sure if they'd be interested in that though.

    think the odds of a major new resort being built are pretty low as fun a speculation as it might be.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlh View Post
    more parking for BC access on 90 (expand hayak and gold creek sno parks).
    I can speak to this one because it's inside a mile from where I live.
    There isn't a snow park at Hyak, though there are areas that people treat as such.
    Most of the land in this area that is directly adjacent to road access is privately owned or there is an environmental concern that would block any related development. This includes Gold Creak as well. In order to accommodate additional parking, WA/USFS or whomever would need to either purchase said land or perform a land swap of some sort.
    There is a finite amount of space up here, once it's filled, it's filled.

    One possible exception would be if the state were to clear the road down to the lake and plow the parking lots that are in that vicinity though the Winter. Even then, the amount of space that it would open up would hardly justify the expense in my view.

  6. #31
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    A good template may be what's happened at Teton Pass. Heck, a mag serves on the board, (his new wife posts fairly often).
    https://friendsofpathways.org/pass-updates/
    I approached this issue in regard to WA pass ages ago. It's just now starting, (the road was plowed to Silver Star gate for the first time in years), even though there was an actual gate built to be put in at the bend near Cutthroat which never was installed.

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  7. #32
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    Any new resort investors are going to care as much (if not more) about real estate potential as they do about skier days. Vail started to explode once they ramped their real estate game. If it's within 2.5 hours of most of Seattle, it will get skiers. Tie into Epic Pass and you'll get tourists tagging it onto a Whistler trip. I remember Suncadia pitching a potential tram for skiing as an amenity when I was out there 10 years ago. Not sure where it would go, but that would help that area quite a bit.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by phatty View Post
    Any new resort investors are going to care as much (if not more) about real estate potential as they do about skier days. Vail started to explode once they ramped their real estate game. If it's within 2.5 hours of most of Seattle, it will get skiers. Tie into Epic Pass and you'll get tourists tagging it onto a Whistler trip. I remember Suncadia pitching a potential tram for skiing as an amenity when I was out there 10 years ago. Not sure where it would go, but that would help that area quite a bit.
    Suncadia and EPIC both suck (suncadia slightly less so). I am liking the ski club idea. Perhaps it is easier to develop a network of meany type clubs. Would be a smaller dent than one big development, but a few small rope tow/short chairlift operations would hopefully pull some families away from alpental on the weekends. And obviously politically and financially easier than a large development. A smart real estate developer could get something going at the bases of those ski clubs. Possible sites: stampede, east or greenwater (although the tweaker factor might limit real estate development), maybe somewhere up by blewett.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACH View Post
    There isn't a snow park at Hyak
    The SnoPark at the Hyak TH in Iron Horse SP is often called the "Hyak SnoPark" I figured that's what carlh was talking about.

  10. #35
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    Steve is on the money. That sno Park is full of kids and sleds almost every weekend all winter and could easily be expanded for more parking and bc access to roaring ridge and Catherine. A real parking lot at gold creek would be nice too but that seems harder to make than expanding the iron horse lot on dot land

    Quote Originally Posted by GeezerSteve View Post
    The SnoPark at the Hyak TH in Iron Horse SP is often called
    the "Hyak SnoPark" I figured that's what carlh was talking about.

  11. #36
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    IME, most of the Hyak SnoPark users are XC skiers. A XC groomer sticker is required to park there. Not great access to touring. Access to Catherine or Roaring Ridge is easier from Hyak ski area parking lot.

    I get a kick looking at the proposed Alpental layout drawing (located in the lodge): Source Lake lodge, Chair Peak Basin chair, Snow Lake Divide Chair.

  12. #37
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    The official PNW Skiers for more ski access thread

    Quote Originally Posted by carlh View Post
    Steve is on the money. That sno Park is full of kids and sleds almost every weekend all winter and could easily be expanded for more parking and bc access to roaring ridge and Catherine. A real parking lot at gold creek would be nice too but that seems harder to make than expanding the iron horse lot on dot land
    Yes Steve is right, I stand corrected, the Iron Horse trail head is used as a sno park in the winter.
    Elaborate on your comment "it could be easily expanded for more parking" please.
    A quick scan of the county property map indicates that the existing parking lot runs to the boarder of state land.

    Edited to add:
    So, you're tell us that you get to that snow park after it's already filled with families there to sled?
    Last edited by ACH; 03-30-2018 at 07:55 PM.

  13. #38
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    I also wonder if we had a dedicated terrain park facility with rope tows, it will draw enough people to stay profitable... full size pipe and mini pipe is what we need. If located in between Seattle and Vancouver, I bet it could be a fun idea...


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  14. #39
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    Time to reopen Mt. Pilchuck.

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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greydon Clark View Post
    Time to reopen Mt. Pilchuck.

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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greydon Clark View Post
    Time to reopen Mt. Pilchuck.

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    I don't think Pilchuck could maintain a good enough snowpack with that elevation and no "pass effect".

    Probably a reason why most Mt Loop area suggestions wouldn't work either???

    btw this is fun, makes me loop at Caltopo all day

  17. #42
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    I’m kind of stoked that all these ideas look like long uphill battles with funding struggles. Perhaps we can all continue to enjoy the great adventure skiing in the cascades without a parking lot and a flying sofa transplanting the crowd. Maybe a selfish perspective, but it’s how I feel, and more so every year. Please come out and ski it; we are fortunate to have such terrain variety and snowfall- just don’t spoil it with infrastructure.


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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by riff View Post
    I’m kind of stoked that all these ideas look like long uphill battles with funding struggles. Perhaps we can all continue to enjoy the great adventure skiing in the cascades without a parking lot and a flying sofa transplanting the crowd. Maybe a selfish perspective, but it’s how I feel, and more so every year. Please come out and ski it; we are fortunate to have such terrain variety and snowfall- just don’t spoil it with infrastructure.


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    From the pure touron perspective, it's easy to look upon the crowded resorts with a smug sneer and wave away the real problem of overcrowding in the accessible places.

    But the pressure relief from busy resorts is the BC.

  19. #44
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    Indeed. I’m not trying to be smug or exclusive; come on out and join us! Find the quiet places. It takes more time and work, no doubt. And it doesn’t really help overcrowding, as you correctly point out. But seeking a more mellow pace even on pow days has made skiing more fun for me. When it’s truly deep or unstable I’ll be in line with everyone else....and stoked.


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  20. #45
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    Wearing my smug exclusive touron hat here.

    While the mountains in the PNW are indeed vast, I'd disagree with the idea that more folks should be heading to the BC because the access points are finite and some day-trip areas are already busier than ideal, and most folks are morons.

    Last week I was skinning back up to a ridge and had fucking Jerry drop right on top of me. Skied right by, maybe 10 feet away. 5 minutes later and I would have been off the slope. Pissed me off.

    I'd rather have more folks skiing in resorts than in the BC.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norseman View Post
    I'd rather have more folks skiing in resorts than in the BC.
    ditto

    I've long thought that Silver Peak would make a nice little lift-served ski area near Snoqualmie Pass. As tourists know, the N aspect bowls hold snow into June most years. There's great old growth tree skiing (Mountain Hemlock, Silver Fir, DougFir) on E aspect slopes to Twin Lakes, and more open W aspect slopes to Lake Annette. Access could be via Windy Pass road or tram from Hyak or Ski Acres. PCT advocates and Seattle Public Utilities (Cedar River Watershed) might push back.
    Last edited by GeezerSteve; 04-02-2018 at 11:48 AM.

  22. #47
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    Norse- I agree I’d rather not have a bunch of morons touring also; and that I’d rather the resorts soak up most of the crowds. Just a personal bias that many of the highway 2 options brought up are places I ski and love as they are, and given a choice I’d prefer they not get built out. There is a crowding issue for sure though. Most of the time I read threads without comment, but this one was so close to home I had to say something, even if I don’t have a real point to make or any solution. Just knee jerk “don’t pave my backyard, bro!”

    I know nothing about what it would take, but expanding towards yodelin out big chief, especially to the Mill Creek side would open lots of ground. Good sustained pitch etc.


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  23. #48
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    I think you guys are delusional talking about opening new resorts. I see the ski industry contracting much like the glaciers on Mt Rainer.

    Sounds like what is really needed are some Park and Rides and shuttle buses to fix the parking situation. I guess the slopes will still be crowded though.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by riff View Post
    Norse- I agree I’d rather not have a bunch of morons touring also; and that I’d rather the resorts soak up most of the crowds. Just a personal bias that many of the highway 2 options brought up are places I ski and love as they are, and given a choice I’d prefer they not get built out. There is a crowding issue for sure though. Most of the time I read threads without comment, but this one was so close to home I had to say something, even if I don’t have a real point to make or any solution. Just knee jerk “don’t pave my backyard, bro!”

    I know nothing about what it would take, but expanding towards yodelin out big chief, especially to the Mill Creek side would open lots of ground. Good sustained pitch etc.


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    What area are you specifically talking about? Nason ridge? I can't imagine you're getting in the North Side of Crook Mountain or Basalt Ridge areas in the winter? That's a hall at the moment.

    I hear what you are saying, but i also but with expanded lift access there would all of a sudden be new, interesting terrain that is currently out of reach for a reasonable day trip. So, sure, current existing tours might become a side country lap but it also opens the door to easier exploration of new places.

    And yeah, I think first and foremost Stevens should radically expand it's current footprint in Mill Valley and Yodelin. A second base area (even it was only open Thursday - Sunday like Hyak is) would hugely help congestion issues and spread people out. Even a single high speed quad at yodelin would help greatly on peak days.

    Quote Originally Posted by billyk View Post
    I think you guys are delusional talking about opening new resorts.
    Stevens Pass opened in the 40s when you couldn't even drive to the mountain. People would take the train and then hike several miles up to the mountain. I don't see how its impossible to get more lift skiing in Washington. Difficult, yes.

  25. #50
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    I was mostly referring to dirty face to crook mountain area, further north up the chiwawa, icicle/cashmere. Admittedly sled access, and admittedly very unlikely candidates for development.


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