2019 4frnt Renegade Changes?

[altacoup]

^^^
Thanks


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[meter-man]

I'd like to find a daily driver to replace a first-gen 185 Cochise. Is the Dev the closest thing out there? Even without metal?

Also, figured this repost was useful because it shows JLev's thinking and why 4FRNT was not profitable. Makes sense to have a niche/TGR product as part of a bigger portfolio (e.g., Line). Make the mass-market skis under one brand, and the core product under another. If I were betting, I would wager it won't be long before J Skis and 4FRNT are either integrated similarly, and/or sold as a package to a big conglomerate. Business is a motherfucker.

On that note, NO idea how on earth Praxis survives. Catering to custom orders must be a HUGE time-suck, and the skis really aren't that expensive given the quality and custom orders.

Reposted from the Sterbenz gone thread, after I kindly told JLev I would step in as CEO of 4FRNT.

Instead of demo, both brands have 100% Money Back Gaurantee. If you don't like product for any reason after few days of use, return them for a full refund or swap out for different size, model. Very few demo centers, link at footer of websites

I give full attention to both equally just like proved was possible when I was running Full Tilt & Line skis. It's in my best interest as the owner and my income coming from both. I also work with the best in the business who's personal perspective, skills, skiing interest, and experience perfectly match the unique aspects of each brand they drive, no employee of one would ever work for the other, they wouldn't fit the brand's position.

I make sure the brands make smart decisions that not only perfectly fit the brand's unique DNA and heritage but also keep them financially sustainable. I've spent over 23 years making mistakes in the ski industry, so although some of my decisions are nontraditional, they're all based on not making the same mistake twice.

The reason we're having this conversation is because 4FRNT is still in business. The reason I own it is because it may not have otherwise been without leveraging my ecommerce experience. (Matt clearly states in interviews that it's been unprofitable for 15 years). No fault of his, the traditional retail business model simply does not work when selling less than 30k pr skis per yr. 4FRNT hit it's glass ceiling selling approx 4,000 pair through retailers and distributors. I hit same glass ceiling when I owned Line, and 15 yrs into it sold to K2 to gain their resources and keep it in business.

So... you can't expect things to change without making a change.

Regarding difference, they couldn't be more different brands. Only thing shared is being small independent, and their back-end operations.

ATITTUDE
J = wild style, creative, make fun of ourselves & sport, sarcastic, tongue and cheek humor, don't care what others think, expect the unexpected
4FRNT = Technical, seek and explore, deep conversation and story telling, knowledge is power to have more fun

IMAGE
J = freestyle, young, more fun
4FRNT = freeride, experienced, more adventure

PRODUCT
J = Award winning products designed by a real person you know and trust, Jason Levinthal. Backed by decades of credibility, hundreds of thousands of skiers own and love JLev's products. All skis camber with rocker tips, mostly twin tip, deep sidecut, for most versatile equal firm and soft snow performance.
4FRNT = Award winning products designed by real pros you know and trust, Hoji, Thayne, and rest of powder hound team who's ideas and actual hands on involvement guarantee best performance and reliability possible. Some camber with rocker tips but many pow skis feature proprietary reverse camber geometry and flatter tails for optimized powder & touring performance, with firm snow less priority.

ONE-OF-A-KIND
J = All skis built in Limited Edition graphic qtys. Collabs w artists, each hand signed & numbered by JLev, you have ski like no one else.
4FRNT = All skis sold under $599 "capped pricing" enables skiers to get the skis they want instead of the ski they can afford by cutting out the middle man selling direct... skiers get more for their money!

CUSTOMER
J = Young at heart, eager to stand out from the rest, fun is most important, mostly in bounds resort terrain
4FRNT = Experienced, eager to earn turns for optimal downhill pow fun, mostly backcountry adventurous terrain

TOP SALES TERRITORIES
J = #1 Colorado, #2 VT, #10 Utah
4FRNT = #1 Colorado, #2 Utah, #10 Vermont

There's dozens more points of differentiation but let me know what you think for starts after visiting the websites 4FRNT.com (we just completely redesigned and Matt and rest of team is extremely proud) & Jskis.com. Also I hope our actions speak will speak more than words demonstrating the strong and authentic differentiation of the two brands, just as you'd see from any other strong and unique brands on the market.

[Mustonen]

More reviews, plz.

[sammyk]

My point has always been that what really set 4frnt apart and in my opinion made them my preferred ski company is that they didn't update stuff every few years just for the sake of updating. I see jlev moving 4frnt in the direction of the big name ski companies. Maybe it'll work. But I doubt it. He loses core buyers but has to compete with the big boys for soul 7, qst 106 sales. That's a tough one. My point is that 4frnt should continue making their great skis and develop some other models to compete with the big boys. But more realistically his goal is to shore up the brand to sell it.


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Funny that you think Jlev, the one who has constantly challenged mainstream ski culture, is going mainstream and dumbing down product. Sure 4FRNT and whoever else is responsible for the Bastard Ren screwed up this year, whether that is a manufacturing issue or silly mistakes made by management, and created a product that is totally different that what we expected but shit happens. We've seen this in other companies and we will see it again. THis is the nature of manufacturing. If we ignore this mistake, would we be questioning anything else that the company is doing? Let's give them a chance here and let them fix their screw up this year. The only people that have ACTUALLY skied the Ren this year didn't have terrible reviews, so if you haven't been on them don't talk down on em. If you don't want a one off playful Ren then don't buy it this year, ski the ones you have, and wait for their attempt to fix it for next year. Don't waste the time to smash the proto Dev and claim that 4FRNT is turning into Soul7's before we've seen anything else. The rest of the product for this season hasn't been dumbed down or Soul7'd so lets let the gd renegade debacle rest!

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

Funny that you think Jlev, the one who has constantly challenged mainstream ski culture, is going mainstream and dumbing down product. Sure 4FRNT and whoever else is responsible for the Bastard Ren screwed up this year, whether that is a manufacturing issue or silly mistakes made by management, and created a product that is totally different that what we expected but shit happens. We've seen this in other companies and we will see it again. THis is the nature of manufacturing. If we ignore this mistake, would we be questioning anything else that the company is doing? Let's give them a chance here and let them fix their screw up this year. The only people that have ACTUALLY skied the Ren this year didn't have terrible reviews, so if you haven't been on them don't talk down on em. If you don't want a one off playful Ren then don't buy it this year, ski the ones you have, and wait for their attempt to fix it for next year. Don't waste the time to smash the proto Dev and claim that 4FRNT is turning into Soul7's before we've seen anything else. The rest of the product for this season hasn't been dumbed down or Soul7'd so lets let the gd renegade debacle rest!

Panties in a wad?

This forum is full of people theorizing. It is what it is. Get over it or go find a “safe space.”

[phallic-menace]

I'll be returning mine

[kid-kapow]

Panties in a wad?

This forum is full of people theorizing. It is what it is. Get over it or go find a “safe space.”

Jeez man.

No panties in a wad on his part from my perspective. His reply is one of the more sensible ones in this thread. I might add, way more sensible that what has been written some other individuals that are seemingly claiming to understand what JLev's vision with 4FRNT is better than the people involved in the brand does - based on a very, very short history with the brand or indeed the sport.

Sure, poeple can use their own inherent abilities at creating patterns where there is none, supported and reinforced by a healthy dose of confirmation bias, but that does not make their findings any more true.

That some people get a bit fed up with unfounded negativity based on one faux pas by the guy who is trying to keep the brand alive, is no reason to reply using the retorical domineering techniques you are trying to pull off. Then again, that kind of retorical devices are usually seen through pretty easily and mostly reflects badly on the person using it, not the receiver - though too many of that kinds of posts just makes the people who have actual knowledge to emaprt/contribute think twice about being on the forum.

And besides - for those who feel this year's iteration of the Renegade is too soft, you should chec out the Inthaynes. They have been getting stellar reviews in its thread here on TGR

[skinipenem]

I'd like to find a daily driver to replace a first-gen 185 Cochise. Is the Dev the closest thing out there? Even without metal?
aT.

Check out blisters review of dev. Pretty spot on. Very different than cochise. In ski the dev more often than any other ski i own but they are pretty unique skiis.



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[Self Jupiter]

I'd like to find a daily driver to replace a first-gen 185 Cochise. Is the Dev the closest thing out there? Even without metal?

I have owned 184 and 194 Dev and 185 OG Cochise. I mount the Devs -1cm back from recommended and had the Cochise on the line. 5’7’’ 195, 32. 10ish years ago I preferred Stockli chargers, and now I greatly prefer newer-school designs for anything but groomers and carving.

The Cochise is quite different from the devs, and for whatever reason I was surprised by that. I did not fool with the tuning of the ski, but they were freshly tuned by a shop and seemed fine.

The 184 Dev is much less ski than a 185 Cochise, the 194 Dev feels like more of a real comparison. I prefer the Dev in almost every way, but I’ve been on Hoji designs for a decade. Finding that I needed an adjustment skiing the Cochise just ruled them out for me, so YMMV. But I think the 194 Dev charges harder, is capable of more turn shapes and responds to different ski styles better, is more fun in the air and a far better carver and groomer ski than the OG Cochise. 194 Dev is superior in powder (more float, looser). and is the best mank/heavy spring snow type ski I’ve ever used by a long mark. The Cochise returned more energy —- I was beginning to get the hang of fun energy return thru the tail of the ski. The Devs don’t return a ton of energy out of the turn, but they return some and they’re so easy to ski otherwise that I’m OK with that. Downside to the 194 Dev is that they’re heavy as F, huge, and tire my legs out after a few days in a row on them. But they never really feel tough to ski.

I keep the 184 around for EC tree skiing and when I’m feeling tired / injured / lazy. Worth noting the tape pull measurement of each of these Devs is 181.5 and 191.5ish cms.

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

Check out blisters review of dev. Pretty spot on. Very different than cochise. In ski the dev more often than any other ski i own but they are pretty unique skiis.



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Very unique ski. I too grab the Dev very often as long as it’s soft. Firm conditions I grab the MSP.

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

I'll be returning mine

Did you get time on them? Any analysis if so?

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

Jeez man.

No panties in a wad on his part from my perspective. His reply is one of the more sensible ones in this thread. I might add, way more sensible that what has been written some other individuals that are seemingly claiming to understand what JLev's vision with 4FRNT is better than the people involved in the brand does - based on a very, very short history with the brand or indeed the sport.

Sure, poeple can use their own inherent abilities at creating patterns where there is none, supported and reinforced by a healthy dose of confirmation bias, but that does not make their findings any more true.

That some people get a bit fed up with unfounded negativity based on one faux pas by the guy who is trying to keep the brand alive, is no reason to reply using the retorical domineering techniques you are trying to pull off. Then again, that kind of retorical devices are usually seen through pretty easily and mostly reflects badly on the person using it, not the receiver - though too many of that kinds of posts just makes the people who have actual knowledge to emaprt/contribute think twice about being on the forum.

And besides - for those who feel this year's iteration of the Renegade is too soft, you should chec out the Inthaynes. They have been getting stellar reviews in its thread here on TGR

I think this whole Bastard Renegade debacle would have not created such a big ripple on TGR if it had happened under Sterbenz.

The “Honest Mistake” + New Ownership together created a setup that triggers suspicion.

Suspicion, theory development, and questioning authority is what scientific and/or business-minded humans do.

Obviously not all humans think this way. Some people like stability and prefer to not question authority.

The InThayne is not a touring ski. It’s not a substitute for a “Real Renegade.”

BTW, I ain’t a 4FRNT hater. I own the Dev, MSP, and Raven. I had ordered the Renegade and it would have completed my BC specific quiver. Thankfully the Mag community pointed me to the Praxis Protest UL core as an alternative.

Finally, length of time in the sport does not qualify or disqualify an idea. What lots of people do here is prop themselves up on their years skiing or self derived superiority and disqualify others based upon a metric that don’t mean shit (years skiing). Get over it. Ideas are ideas. It does not matter their source.

As an example that years skiing don’t mean shit:

In only my third year skiing today, I’m out skiing 20-40 year skiers at the resort all the time. Thanks to my mentor, I climbed and ski’d off the summit of Mt Shasta at the end of my first year. Anyone else out there check off at 14’er in their first year? Not likely. (Never boarded, never ski’d until December 2016; Shasta in June 2017).

Obviously if years skiing mattered, this Mexican skier would not exist.

[Mustonen]

As an example that years skiing don’t mean shit:

In only my third year skiing today, I’m out skiing 20-40 year skiers at the resort all the time.

If you’re wondering, later, where you lost the argument or, maybe, at what point people stopped listening: There it is.

WTF do you even think that means?

[KyleLanTheman]

Being a rad skier with little experience is a metric that only matters to you mang. It's alright to be proud, but skiing well doesn't add mich weight to an argument.

Talking about skiing well means even less. Be humble, your actions should say plenty.

[reckless toboggan]

I’m so much better than you.

I’m the best skier on this mountain.

I can stick uphill ice on my saucer.

[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

I’m so much better than you.

I’m the best skier on this mountain.

I can stick uphill ice on my saucer.

That’s it. You got it! Ding Ding Ding!

[nyskirat]

4frnt has a nice deal going on FYI for a buy 1 get 1 of MSP99, Devastator, and Hoji

[Hughwindlip]

+1. Just don't know what I need. First world problems.

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[altacoup]

^^^

Not liking some ski design decisions but these deals are unreal. They need to get them out to more people. IMO: bring back demos at core areas. More hype more eyes on the product. I'm buying something on this deal. Have really wanted to try msp 99. But if they're changing the devestator is a great deal to stockpile a 184 and 194. Got the night to think it over. But will be expanding my already overloaded 4frnt quiver. Liking the deals. Just want the goods to stay up to par. Note to jlev. Figure out a way to get these deals out to the masses. Partner with ski resort email lists?


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[Best Mexican Skier from Da South]

^^^

Not liking some ski design decisions but these deals are unreal. They need to get them out to more people. IMO: bring back demos at core areas. More hype more eyes on the product. I'm buying something on this deal. Have really wanted to try msp 99. But if they're changing the devestator is a great deal to stockpile a 184 and 194. Got the night to think it over. But will be expanding my already overloaded 4frnt quiver. Liking the deals. Just want the goods to stay up to par. Note to jlev. Figure out a way to get these deals out to the masses. Partner with ski resort email lists?


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MSP 99 is highly recommend. Pretty powerful tool for firm conditions or longer breaks in natural delivery of fresh. Quick turning on steeps are great, and edge hold on steep firm is the best in my quiver. Longer arcs are doable, but more energy is required to drive them at speed when compared to a bigger radii ski.

I’m on the fence about getting a new (backup) 194 Dev too

[nyskirat]

MSP 99 is highly recommend. Pretty powerful tool for firm conditions or longer breaks in natural delivery of fresh. Quick turning on steeps are great, and edge hold on steep firm is the best in my quiver. Longer arcs are doable, but more energy is required to drive them at speed when compared to a bigger radii ski.

I’m on the fence about getting a new (backup) 194 Dev too

I'm on the fence about buying a pair of the MSP99 in a 187. I have Dynastar Pro Riders and Legend Factory so I'm not sure if the MSP99 sort of clashes with the Pro Riders. I know 6mm in width isn't a lot, but the only real different I can see beyond that is the turn shape radius.

[PlayItLeo]

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[gaijin]

What a rad sign of ownership.

/applause.

[phallic-menace]

Renuchgade

[whyturn]

Now this is just bad ownership. You sell them for $599 and screw up build. Then sell them as blems for $399. Where is our $200 refund? We paid full price for blems and now your saying those who come in after our pre orders get a better deal. Done playing with you guys!