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  1. #426
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
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    7
    Hello!

    Wanted to take a moment and update all you loyal Renegade lovers on this years model. As we all know last year there was an error in production of the Renegades. Again we apologize for this blunder. We did our best to make things right with folks who had already purchased and dubbed all the remainders on our website "The Bastard Renegade" (thanks again for the name suggestion). We learned our lessons and immediately started down the path of correcting and improving. For full transparency here's exactly what happened between then and now.

    Eric had actually been on the same exact pair of Renegades for about 4 seasons, he did pretty much all of his filming for "Hoji" on this pair. We sent this favorite pair to Soothski, a small company associated with the University of Sherbrooke in Quebec. They have a state of the art ski scanner which is capable of measuring both camber and flex profile with incredible detail. We compared Eric's favorite pair to another pair he recently hand pressed out of the Whiteroom in SLC, as well as a first round correction prototype coming from Utopie, where the Renegade is currently produced. What we learned was that Eric's favorite pair was stiffer, specifically underfoot, as well as had an increased rocker profile. The rocker was also greater than other past versions that were produced in the Whiteroom. We got a second round of prototypes out of Utopie at the end of February, for these we listened to that data and increased the rocker and added more wood to the core. Eric got on those skis and banked some insane shots for this seasons Matchstick film, he was hyped on how they were skiing. We sent this round back to Soothski for another round of analysis. This time we confirmed the rocker profile was spot on but the core needed to be beefed up another touch in order to get the flex up to Hoji's standards. The final round of protos when back to Hoji and a select group of Renegade fanatics, just in time for spring skiing. They were skied on volcanoes in the PNW as well as on Denali by Shane Treat, a hard charging Team Rider and major Renegade lover. He's been quoted saying "Always bring your Renegades so when you're standing at the top you never say "I wish I brought my Renegades.Ē"


    When it was time to go into production our biggest concern this year was QC and consistency. I personally drove up to the factory in June to dial in a new QC form block to measure rocker and put in place systems where every other day finished skis are pulled from the line to conduct flex and profile tests, and then logged into a shared document for review. They then shipped 4 pairs of randomly selected skis directly to the office to conduct our own tests. To sum it all up this year we are confident this ski is back and better than ever. They are the full send, no speed-limit skis that Eric designed and now feature Eric's dream rocker profile which was always intended on for this model. We also worked with a good friend of Ericís from Whistler, Andrea Muller, and came up with his favorite graphic to date! If anyone has any further questions please feel free to reach out. Be sure to check out the skis and watch our new product video here: https://4frnt.com/collections/skis/products/renegade

    All the best,
    - Dan (Brand Manager)
    dan@4frnt.com
    801-975-9500 ext. 110



  2. #427
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Montucky
    Posts
    1,076
    Nice summary, and appreciate the info, Dan. Hope to see some rippers out on this ski after last yearís debacle.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  3. #428
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    5,118
    Thatís good to hear. So those of us who dealt with the mess last year were told by Jason directly that we would get a significantly reduced price to come back and try the ďcorrected pairĒ. Is someone going to let us know how we can do that?

  4. #429
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,871
    So to clarify, the 2019/20 Renegade starts off with the flex of a ski that's been beat on by Eric for 4 years?

    And then, as we ski it, it will break in and get softer from there... [ especially given that Eric is about 5'10" and weighs in the neighbourhood of 165# ] ...instead of giving us the flex and camber of the favorite ski when it started out?

    Just trying to figure out what has actually been accomplished, since I can't go into a store and fondle them in comparison to my current skis or in comparison to other new skis.

    You'll have to forgive my/our collective scepticism particularly given the Renoodlegade fiasco last year, but any ski that I've beat on for 4 years has nothing in common with how that ski started out when I bought it new.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  5. #430
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    my own little world
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    ^^ itís a long road to recovery. Trust, man. Your entire business model now hinges on trust. Quit fucking that up.
    focus.

  6. #431
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Wasatch
    Posts
    697
    thanks for the update. need a new pair of renegades this year and was waiting for the update on the new ones. cheers

  7. #432
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Boulder
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    973
    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    So to clarify, the 2019/20 Renegade starts off with the flex of a ski that's been beat on by Eric for 4 years?
    Why is this an issue? They claim to have based the flex pattern and rocker profile off of the pair of skis that the designer of the skis has deemed to be the best version. The age of this "test mule" is irrelevant, as long as they based their measurements off of that same ski. They're matching the mass product to the "proto" that testers preferred. Replace "4yr old pair" with "prototype that Eric thought skied best" - is it still a problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    And then, as we ski it, it will break in and get softer from there...
    Yes, just like any other ski that's ever been produced. The rate and amount of that inevitable change in flex depends on rider weight, usage conditions, materials used, etc. Please explain why this concern is unique to this ski.

    No affiliation with 4frnt, and no incentive for me to defend them, but your concerns with the design process for this iteration of Renegade seem unfounded/confused.

  8. #433
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,871
    ^^^

    My post is clear and points out a valid concern.


    If you don't understand it, I don't think anyone can help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  9. #434
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    whistler
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    949
    skis change a lot in the first 10-20 days of use. If the new skis have as a starting point the flex of the 4 year old ski, then they're effectively softer, no?

  10. #435
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,377
    You trolls need to chill out with the speculation. Take what is said at face value.

    4FRNT explained (with utter transparency) what happened with last yearís production run.

    Then they said that of all the skis Hoji has been testing, theyíre building that one that he keeps coming back to after four years of R&D.

    This is the definition of a cult following of a design.

    I own the 186 Owls. Is that 2014? The most intuitive ski of my life. I canít imagine a better ski. But youíre telling me thereís a next gen shape that has four years of testing on it that is the 2020 production model?

    And you idiot readers are going to conjure up some bs about how you speculate why it will suck? What the fuck is wrong with you? Iím trying to come up with explanations to my wife as to why I need two new hoarded pairs of a category I already own.

  11. #436
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    Apr 2007
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  12. #437
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    Dec 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickel View Post
    skis change a lot in the first 10-20 days of use. If the new skis have as a starting point the flex of the 4 year old ski, then they're effectively softer, no?
    Exactly.

    If they start at the stiffness/flex of a 4 year old ski, which would have softened a bunch over the course of 4 years that Eric has skied, "Eric had actually been on the same exact pair of Renegades for about 4 seasons", they will only get softer from there over the first 10 to 30 days when we ski them. So not same same.

    I have a pair of 193 EHPs with a couple hundred days on them. Fun ski. But I wouldn't want to buy them new with their current flex, rocker, and folding tip due to so much use. My other pair of EHP 193s has about 10 days on them. I'm sparingly using those for perfect days, since 4frnt isn't making them anymore, and so Renegades have become my go-to daily driver.

    I have 2 pairs of 186 EHPs, and one of those has over a hundred days, same conclusion as above. The other pair is fine as it's a b/c setup with 20 or so days.

    I have 2 pairs of 186 Renegades in two different constructions. After about 40 days, one of those pair have changed quite a bit in terms of camber and flex and a reduction of the "reflect tech" shape, which was an issue with that run of skis. The other pair is holding its shape better with only about 15 backcountry days on them.

    I have a pair of devastators, with 2 early / late seasons on them (basically jibby rock skis for me, so 15 or 20 days?). They're pretty floppy, even compared to the relatively soft flex they started with. But that's just a pretty bendy ski. Fair enough.

    I have a pair of older (but were new in package 3 years ago) 189 VCT/Turbos, built very similar construction to the EHP IIRC. About 20 days. Still going strong. Stiff and damp as fuck. Freight trains, just like the EHP for the first few seasons.

    For reference, I'm 5'11" and 175#.

    If I notice the difference, then others will too.

    If 4frnt is starting with a well-broken-in ski that has 4 seasons of Eric skiing on them, then they use that for the starting flex of the production run, the skis will soften up, as per usual, especially over the first 10 to 30 days.

    If they'd made the skis stiffer than Eric's 4 year old pair, after 10 to 30 days the skis would have broken in and settled into something closer to what Eric is skiing.

    It's not rocket surgery. It's not bashing or trolling. I'm simply asking for clarification.

    It's a valid question and concern as to why they did it that way.

    Instead of building it the way the 4 season old ski that Eric uses feels now (after 4 seasons), they could have bumped it up so that when the ski goes through its initial break in period it'd then feel like Eric's magic pair of skis.

    Or is 4frnt using some technology that makes the ski never change from new through break in, through 2 or 3 seasons of skiing?

    That'd be amazing!
    Last edited by reckless toboggan; 08-18-2019 at 08:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  13. #438
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    my own little world
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    2,351
    Quote Originally Posted by gaijin View Post
    Thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    Exactly.

    If they start at the stiffness/flex of a 4 year old ski, which would have softened a bunch over the course of 4 years that Eric has skied, "Eric had actually been on the same exact pair of Renegades for about 4 seasons", they will only get softer from there over the first 10 to 30 days when we ski them. So not same same.

    I have a pair of 193 EHPs with a couple hundred days on them. Fun ski. But I wouldn't want to buy them new with their current flex, rocker, and folding tip due to so much use. My other pair of EHP 193s has about 10 days on them. I'm sparingly using those for perfect days, since 4frnt isn't making them anymore, and so Renegades have become my go-to daily driver.

    I have 2 pairs of 186 EHPs, and one of those has over a hundred days, same conclusion as above. The other pair is fine as it's a b/c setup with 20 or so days.

    I have 2 pairs of 186 Renegades in two different constructions. After about 40 days, one of those pair have changed quite a bit in terms of camber and flex and a reduction of the "reflect tech" shape, which was an issue with that run of skis. The other pair is holding its shape better with only about 15 backcountry days on them.

    I have a pair of devastators, with 2 early / late seasons on them (basically jibby rock skis for me, so 15 or 20 days?). They're pretty floppy, even compared to the relatively soft flex they started with. But that's just a pretty bendy ski. Fair enough.

    I have a pair of older (but were new in package 3 years ago) 189 VCT/Turbos, built very similar construction to the EHP IIRC. About 20 days. Still going strong. Stiff and damp as fuck. Freight trains, just like the EHP for the first few seasons.

    For reference, I'm 5'11" and 175#.

    If I notice the difference, then others will too.

    If 4frnt is starting with a well-broken-in ski that has 4 seasons of Eric skiing on them, then they use that for the starting flex of the production run, the skis will soften up, as per usual, especially over the first 10 to 30 days.

    If they'd made the skis stiffer than Eric's 4 year old pair, after 10 to 30 days the skis would have broken in and settled into something closer to what Eric is skiing.

    It's not rocket surgery. It's not bashing or trolling. I'm simply asking for clarification.

    It's a valid question and concern as to why they did it that way.

    Instead of building it the way the 4 season old ski that Eric uses feels now (after 4 seasons), they could have bumped it up so that when the ski goes through its initial break in period it'd then feel like Eric's magic pair of skis.

    Or is 4frnt using some technology that makes the ski never change from new through break in, through 2 or 3 seasons of skiing?

    That'd be amazing!
    Iím super disappointed in 4frnt these past couple years. That said, he said they found that Ericís favorite pair are stiffer than production. So they made the production models stiffer. Thatís what we want, right?

    Iím positive it didnít occur to them that skis soften over time, because these guys are dentists and are doing all of this on a lark. So thereís a chance what weíll get will be a slightly mellower version of what Hoji skis.

    Ok.
    focus.

  14. #439
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Alta
    Posts
    451
    As someone with 4 pairs of whiteroom renegades sitting in my closet as backups to go along with 2 pairs in rotation, 3 pairs of ehps, 3 devestators and some msp99. I'm actually really stoked on what 4frnt has done this year with the renegade (except the top sheet, which is hideous imo). I've been very critical of 4frnt since jlev took over. All because the changes to made to great skis. However these new renegades sound like they're on the right track. Despite last year's mistake. I'll trust hoji and 4frnt on this one. 4frnts explanation on the design process seems very legit and week thought out. Besides on3p and praxis no other ski brand is on here giving that type of detail on design/build process. Props! Hope they rip although I'm a long ways out from needing new renegades.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  15. #440
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    4,871
    I hope the new Rens rip and I actually really like the graphic. The 191 is tempting.

    I'm just wondering why they didn't make the ski a bit stiffer so that it would break in to the ski that Eric skis currently.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  16. #441
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,599
    [QUOTE=reckless toboggan;5736434
    I'm just wondering why they didn't make the ski a bit stiffer so that it would break in to the ski that Eric skis currently.[/QUOTE]

    Maybe it's the 'broken in' state of the older pair he was after

  17. #442
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    80
    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    I hope the new Rens rip and I actually really like the graphic. The 191 is tempting.

    I'm just wondering why they didn't make the ski a bit stiffer so that it would break in to the ski that Eric skis currently.
    I totally understand why you're skeptical. However, I think you're reading something into Dan's statement that is not there.

    Dan never said they were trying to exactly match the new skis to Eric's broken in pair in terms of flex day one. He did say they were trying to match the core and camber profile based on careful measurements of the old ski and while making sure the flex was more consistent than not. I think that part of design process is somewhat vulnerable to the criticism your leveling (really 4FRNT should "gross up" the flex a bit for break in and maybe the camber profile?).

    However, that wasn't the entire design process! Dan said Hoji then tried the new ones out and they beefed them up again in response to feedback. Then they sent the beefed up skis back out to Hoji and a few other guys. I hope and trust that everyone was happy with round 2, but unless Dan is lying out his ass we know that the first round (slightly softer) prototypes are the ones Hoji used in films this year.

    I think that is the best possible process unless you have some sort of time travel machine that lets Hoji ski the new Rens for exactly the same number of days and conditions as his favorite old pair.

  18. #443
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    7
    Hello again!

    Appreciate all the passion people have for this ski. That being said, we obviously respect Eric's opinion the most as being the visionary behind these models from day one. When (re)dialing in these skis we constantly confirmed with him that they are exactly what he was looking for. This includes every detail of its shape and construction and of course flex pattern for when they come out of the factory. If he preferred the ski to be stiffer, we would do just that, however Eric believes this is the best flex for the ski's intended performance, and rest assured it is STIFF. Counter to what some other companies do, we do not change or "water-down" what we provide our pro's vs deliver to you, our customers. What Eric skis is exactly the same ski that we deliver to you. Incase you are not already aware as with all 4FRNT ski purchases we offer a Money Back Guarantee. So, if you don't like the skis for any reason after 3 days of skiing on them, you can return them for a different model or get your full money back. Obviously like any ski, it is best to first ski on it before deciding what you think of the ski's performance which Hoji designed, engineered and tested. The Renegade is available exclusively at 4FRNT.com and the 191's are in stock and now shipping. Thanks again for all the passion and support!

    Best.

    - Dan

  19. #444
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    FR&CH
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    114
    So the 184 will be the same size as Eric's 4 years old 186, correct ?

  20. #445
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Golden B.C.
    Posts
    255
    Anyone see any change in quality/longevity between the Elan pressed 4frnts and the Quebec made ones? My elan made Hojis have been tough as nails, but I'm considering a new pair.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using TGR Forums mobile app

  21. #446
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Stumptown
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    Quote Originally Posted by skisurfmirth View Post
    Anyone see any change in quality/longevity between the Elan pressed 4frnts and the Quebec made ones? My elan made Hojis have been tough as nails, but I'm considering a new pair.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using TGR Forums mobile app
    Elan never made Renegades. They were all white room built before.

  22. #447
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    171
    Thatís correct but heís asking about the other models and comparing the Elan factory to the Quebec factory.

    Iím not sure... I think there is a drop off from the handmade small batch whiteroom stuff but I would guess materials and quality are still better than average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    Elan never made Renegades. They were all white room built before.

  23. #448
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Alta
    Posts
    451
    ^^^

    I'm also curious as to people's experience on the Quebecoise skis. The elan made skis were always top notch in my opinion. Whiteroom skis were kind of hit or miss. I've had good luck with the 186s but had to return 2 separate pairs of 196s as the camber was totally off.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  24. #449
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Stumptown
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tailwind View Post
    Thatís correct but heís asking about the other models and comparing the Elan factory to the Quebec factory.

    Iím not sure... I think there is a drop off from the handmade small batch whiteroom stuff but I would guess materials and quality are still better than average.
    Yeah. That came off bitchy. I think the white room skis were bomber but never had the tech available to us that Elan had as far as how they controlled the minutia of the lay up. They also could match pairs based on flex even if they werenít pressed at the same time. My guess is that the new place may be somewhere in the middle of the two, but whether that is better or worse I couldnít tell you.

  25. #450
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Golden B.C.
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    255
    All good. Thanks for the info.

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