2019 4frnt Renegade Changes?

**DumbIdeasOnly** · 12-13-2018, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by dcpnz

You know what is boneheaded?
Changing the production layup AFTER spending a year designing, prototyping and testing ski redesigns and getting “final” athlete signoff.

We actually agree on that. I thought I was clear I was not defending the basic choice.

In fact, this thread made me much less interested in ever buying a product from J again because it drove home to me how he is kind of careless. I cannot imagine Keith, Scott or Luke doing something like that based on how they generally conduct themselves (also building your own skis in small batches means you cannot have this exact problem). I, to the extent possible, would like to do business with people who are careful and detail oriented. So yeah, I get being frustrated.

Where I start to disagree with you and Mexican is the idea that the decision J made was based on something other than his own stupidity. His story was that he had an idea based on some research on competitive products to make the base lighter. Mexcian's story was some sort of elaborate conspiracy to turn a full rocker 122 ski into the next Soul 7. You thought he did it to cut costs which also seems a bit unlikely to me, though yours is admittedly much less stupid than Mexican's and my reaction to it is based mostly on some familiarity with plastic pricing and industrial production models.

**reckless toboggan** · 12-13-2018, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly

You are not a special snow flake. JLev does not care about you.

The skis are a bit softer than anyone meant them to be. They are not going to explode crippling you for life. Ski them, see if you like them. If you don't, return and order a replacement from someone else. If you do like the rens, live with the reality you are part of the "Blue Run crowd." Only thing that gets hurt is your pride because you liked the Eunuchglade.

Hahahah. Ahhhhh. ^^^This. Exactly this.^^^

I love this thread. So much drama. So much entertainment.

RENEGLADE!

Although it does make you wonder if the ski that you order from 4frnt is what will actually arrive, eventually after several emails saying they've been delayed by several months, at your door.

**DumbIdeasOnly** · 12-13-2018, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by reckless toboggan

Hahahah. Ahhhhh. ^^^This. Exactly this.^^^

I love this thread. So much drama. So much entertainment.

RENEGLADE!

Although it doesn't make you wonder if the ski that you order from 4frnt is what will actually arrive, eventually after several emails saying they've been delayed by several months, at your door.

Think we agree 100%. Does the Reneglade/Rainbow unicornade/eunichgade make me excited to buy 4frnt skis? Nope which is a real shame. Waiting a good while until they figure shit out. If they're still around when I trust them again great.

Do I think J is some evil mastermind out to screw mags? Nope. Some mags need to check tinfoil hat sizing.

**Hughwindlip** · 12-13-2018, 10:55 AM

My opinion - Even if you are doing 2000m plus days, my opinion is the 200g +/- penalty at most is harmless from most recent iteration of the last two Rens. Just get tougher or lighter.

I like the red white HOJI weight, Sweet spot for touring weight but legit ski under you.

I have a black green Ren recently mounted with shifts, after skiing that set up, I'll drag those up anything when the conditions warrant.

Is light is always right? for the purposes of what I presume is the representative crowd on this forum....

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**Best Mexican Skier from Da South** · 12-13-2018, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly

Think we agree 100%. Does the Reneglade/Rainbow unicornade/eunichgade make me excited to buy 4frnt skis? Nope which is a real shame. Waiting a good while until they figure shit out. If they're still around when I trust them again great.

Do I think J is some evil mastermind out to screw mags? Nope. Some mags need to check tinfoil hat sizing.

My tinfoil hat size is XL and I need the hat shaped like a pinto bean to feel culturally comfy, holmes...

You ever get on TGR forums on...?

J is not an evil mastermind. He's a business man. He did not buy 4FRNT to just keep it afloat for the fringe TGR mags (*fringe = any skier who skis more than 2 weeks a year). He bought it, because he saw an opportunity to make some money. Who doesn't like money?!

Now, tell me which option sounds more reasonable for making mo' money! A) or B)

A) JLev buys 4FRNT to keep the same business model that has not to this date yielded much in profits. I believe JLev or Matt noted this in a press release detailing the sale of 4FRNT. Again, JLev buys 4FRNT to keep the same business model that doesn't make much profit. He buys it just to spend hours of his life everyday keeping 4FRNT afloat for the fringe skier population to enjoy. And in return does not want to make more money than 4FRNT has made historically.

B) JLev sees the potential in 4FRNT to make a profit. How does one make a profit selling skis for $599? Sell more units. How does one sell more units than the previous "Hardcore/Innovative" business model that targeted the fringe skier population? Sell to the majority of skiers. How does one sell to the majority? Here's one tactic: Buy a company that has a "Hardcore" reputation/image. Use the fact that most of the majority loves the idea of "Hardcore," and wants to be labeled in one way or another as "Hardcore." Then change the products to sell better with the majority. The majority gets their "Hardcore" image. 4FRNT makes more money.

Hell, man. I'd choose B) everytime. Lets make some dough! That's life. See an opportunity and take it. It would not be surprising if JLev does make 4FRNT profitable within 5 years riding the "Hardcore" image that was created from the original owner crew. I just don't see that happening by sticking with the old business model.

**kathleenturneroverdrive** · 12-13-2018, 08:43 PM

LOL dude no one wants to read all that

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**DumbIdeasOnly** · 12-13-2018, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South

My tinfoil hat size is XL and I need the hat shaped like a pinto bean to feel culturally comfy, holmes...

You ever get on TGR forums on...?

J is not an evil mastermind. He's a business man. He did not buy 4FRNT to just keep it afloat for the fringe TGR mags (*fringe = any skier who skis more than 2 weeks a year). He bought it, because he saw an opportunity to make some money. Who doesn't like money?!

Now, tell me which option sounds more reasonable for making mo' money! A) or B)

A) JLev buys 4FRNT to keep the same business model that has not to this date yielded much in profits. I believe JLev or Matt noted this in a press release detailing the sale of 4FRNT. Again, JLev buys 4FRNT to keep the same business model that doesn't make much profit. He buys it just to spend hours of his life everyday keeping 4FRNT afloat for the fringe skier population to enjoy. And in return does not want to make more money than 4FRNT has made historically.

B) JLev sees the potential in 4FRNT to make a profit. How does one make a profit selling skis for $599? Sell more units. How does one sell more units than the previous "Hardcore/Innovative" business model that targeted the fringe skier population? Sell to the majority of skiers. How does one sell to the majority? Here's one tactic: Buy a company that has a "Hardcore" reputation/image. Use the fact that most of the majority loves the idea of "Hardcore," and wants to be labeled in one way or another as "Hardcore." Then change the products to sell better with the majority. The majority gets their "Hardcore" image. 4FRNT makes more money.

Hell, man. I'd choose B) everytime. Lets make some dough! That's life. See an opportunity and take it. It would not be surprising if JLev does make 4FRNT profitable within 5 years riding the "Hardcore" image that was created from the original owner crew. I just don't see that happening by sticking with the old business model.

I think you don't understand the economics of running small consumer products businesses as well as you think you do. While I can think of numerous examples of big ski companies dumbing down skis to make them accessible or discontinuing performance lines entirely (RIP Head Monsters), I can't actually think of an example of a boutique/low volume brand pursuing the strategy of selling out their core consumer to chase volumes which you think is obviously profitable. I can think of "premium mass" brands that have tried to diversify their product offerings for less performance oriented consumers (Kastle/DPS come to mind) to monetize cachet, but they are luxury products in a way I don't think 4FRNT skis are. Also, Kastle still makes (most of) the good skis (MX series), they are just not the entire line anymore.

Whether any sane person would do that with a full reverse 122 cm powder ski designed in part for touring is a different conversation. I personally think no sane person would do that because the only "mass market" powder skis anyone without the cardiovascular fitness of a Kenyan marathoner and the quads of a German bodybuilder would care to carry up hill I can even think of are the Atomic Bent Chetler (which I think Atomic makes for their athletes for marketing purposes because I doubt they sell the volume to justify it considered in isolation), the Volkl BMT series and possibly the DPS Lotus. I would submit none of those skis are aimed at the JONG crowd, though of course JONGs may own any of them and are possibly more likely to do so than OG Renegades.

However, as far as I know, none of the very short list of mass market powder tourable skis suck. I have not skied them, so I am not telling you I think they're great. I'm just saying I doubt that if you're trying to move mass market you start with your powder skis that only idiots who hang out on ski forums even buy...

**Best Mexican Skier from Da South** · 12-13-2018, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by DumbIdeasOnly

I'm just saying I doubt that if you're trying to move mass market you start with your powder skis that only idiots who hang out on ski forums even buy...

I counter that. Because the average/majority skier already has multiple "all mountain" skis, the powder ski is where you start. That could be the "hook" for new customers.

The 19' Renegade with the geometry and design input from Hoji is still very powerful. And taming down a great design may yield better profit results with secondary and tertiary 4FRNT purchases from those new customers.

I also don't know anything about small consumer products, but dissecting and theorizing regarding this whole Renegade roll out is fun!

**John_B** · 12-13-2018, 11:01 PM

It's not fun to read, it's obnoxious. Ski the fucking thing, then post about how it sucks vs building up how much it sucks and telling us about it before you ski it.

**Best Mexican Skier from Da South** · 12-13-2018, 11:07 PM

Ain’t that simple. Many people have issue with buying, mounting, and wasting time testing a final product that was never tested by the manufacturer.

The winter is only so long. Days are valuable right now... especially for a powder ski.

**Banh Mi** · 12-14-2018, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South

Ain’t that simple. Many people have issue with buying, mounting, and wasting time testing a final product that was never tested by the manufacturer.

The winter is only so long. Days are valuable right now... especially for a powder ski.

What DID you want to use the Ren for?? Inbounds pow/chop or 50/50?

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**grenalds** · 12-14-2018, 11:30 AM

I haven't posted on this forum for-fucking-ever, but thought I'd chime in since I got my first day on my new 191 Renegades yesterday. I've been reading the thread and was kinda bummed about the 'changes'.

I'm 6-3 and usually over 200lbs in the winter - I mounted em 2cm back per the 'Hoji' mounting advice. I have these mounted with a pin binding, and never plan on taking em to the resort. Last year I toured on the Bibby Tours and never quite clicked with those skis. I think I missed having a full reverse camber ski - which I've always had in the quiver since midyear when the OG Spatulas came out (which makes me feel pretty old).

Skied a big (~2500') shot yesterday with 10" of fresh on an old sun crust. Skis were very, very manageable in a steep tight chute to start the run. I was hesitant to open it up early season (ROCKS) and could easily make some fall line turns and then dump speed to let my sluff past. After that I immediately 'clicked' with the ski and was able to make any turn shape I wanted, or slash and throw up some snow - had to point a choke through debris/sluff/rocks with some speed and ended up arcing big, fast turns at the bottom apron of the run in denser powder (south facing run, not quite mank at that point).

For me, I'm immediately psyched on these skis - first pair of 4frnts. I think a little softer/lighter might make them a great touring ski for ME. The weight is really compelling for a touring ski if you compare to other skis in the class... I could see folks being bummed if you use these at a resort and make zero turns all the time - but I can't really speak to that since I'll never take em to Snowbird or Alta.

I'm keeping mine. Interested in what other folks think after they get some days on em.

**reckless toboggan** · 12-14-2018, 11:32 AM

Nice. Good to see the reviews starting to come in.

Looking forward to more.

**Banh Mi** · 12-14-2018, 11:49 AM

Good initial review. I bet they can still handle the resort great, just not be a fkn bruiser in super choppy and cruddy situations. Its a bit wide for that anyways tho IMO.. Probably a perfect resort pow day ski for somewhere you can get semi-untracked all day on a storm day, which is a decent number places here out west.

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**markcjr** · 12-14-2018, 12:21 PM

I thought people didn't really like the Renegade in chop? I could be completely wrong as I've never skied it but I thought people were stoked on it for high-speed charging in fresh pow but then most people thought it kicked their ass once it got too choppy? I can vaguely recall one reviewer on this forum saying something to the effect of "it's the only ski that I feel beat up with after an all-day session". No horse in this race so I'm just genuinely curious, if most people are using it in fresh ,such as the review we just saw, shouldn't really be much of a problem right? I get it if you want a stiffer ski to blast through chop though.

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**whyturn** · 12-14-2018, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by markcjr

I thought people didn't really like the Renegade in chop? I could be completely wrong as I've never skied it but I thought people were stoked on it for high-speed charging in fresh pow but then most people thought it kicked their ass once it got too choppy? I can vaguely recall one reviewer on this forum saying something to the effect of "it's the only ski that I feel beat up with after an all-day session". No horse in this race so I'm just genuinely curious, if most people are using it in fresh ,such as the review we just saw, shouldn't really be much of a problem right? I get it if you want a stiffer ski to blast through chop though.

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I think that comment was mine or could have been. Yes it was a storm day ski for me and change out at lunch if choppy or rutted groomers. I am torn on mounting my new ones to tour or resort. I just don’t tour much maybe I need to see how that goes first.

For sure in fresh they have been hard to beat for slash and flow. (Owl and crow versions)

My home mtn stays fresh longer than others

so I am hoping to like em.

**Self Jupiter** · 12-14-2018, 01:00 PM

That was a bunch of us- that 196 Ren is a big boy and tires me out, but doesn’t feel like a lot of work to get to come around. If that makes any sense...

I also wouldn’t call it a crud crusher, more of a chop skipper that also handles firm finely. The 194 Dev crushes or skips and is the best chop/ crud ski for dense snow I’ve ever been on

Thanks for the on snow review!

**Banh Mi** · 12-14-2018, 01:04 PM

Even in soft-ish crud? I never skied any Ren.

Thats where the Billy Goats and Bibbys and Rx and other 115-120mm skis crush IMO, but I do notice that as I get onto a wider ski, the skis prefer smoother surfaces. Soft Groomers or semi-untracked to full untracked. I did honestly believe the Ren was a next day after the storm crusher, but I guess I was wrong.

If I’m buying an “untracked” ski, for the resort meaning I dont have to slog it uphill, I’m going for something insanely powder specific. Donner Party or Powderboards. Am I crazy for thinking these 120-130mm skis are kind of out of place for my situation? They dont handle mixed conditions like 115-120mm skis, and dont have that ultimate experience that I get from skis over 130 and severly powder specific (Bubbas and Protests would be at the beginning of this spectrum, and the sky is the limit from there lol)

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**DumbIdeasOnly** · 12-14-2018, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Best Mexican Skier from Da South

I counter that. Because the average/majority skier already has multiple "all mountain" skis, the powder ski is where you start. That could be the "hook" for new customers.

The 19' Renegade with the geometry and design input from Hoji is still very powerful. And taming down a great design may yield better profit results with secondary and tertiary 4FRNT purchases from those new customers.

I also don't know anything about small consumer products, but dissecting and theorizing regarding this whole Renegade roll out is fun!

I'm probably going to stop engaging at this point but if you want to start a "sell out bros ski biz plan" thread go for it. If you can write it in a thoughtful enough way JLev, Scott, Luke, Keith or any of the other indie ski guys who do respond to reasonable questions on this board are willing to comment I'd be really interested. I am about 99% sure they will tell you your idea is nonsensical and I can even speculate about why they will say that, but I don't really know how they would see it.

Perhaps Scott's long game is selling ON3P to Vale Resorts in 10 years for $$$ after outsourcing production to North Korea, thus explaining his avatar*. Would be a super long con.

* I think it's actually because his employees call him "Dear Leader" for working them so hard but am not 100%.

**whyturn** · 12-14-2018, 01:50 PM

REN does not float like toons. Neither does protest. More of a sub then porpoise. Different feel to be in pow than on top which can be fun. You buy a ren or protest to slash and go fast. Bibby or BG is crud killer and fun in different way. I have all 4 to am discussing and they all have advantages
REN is fastest
Protest is close second but more float
BG Kills trees and surfy
Bibby is more all mtn pow

**Self Jupiter** · 12-14-2018, 01:53 PM

REN is awesome in soft chop. Amazing in untracked and awesome on the chop but still soft runs. Once it’s crud and moguls, with some chop but with chop as the minority and crud the majority, I’d rather be on different skis.

ETA and by ‘awesome’ I mean it retains that frictionless rocket ship quality.

**tuco** · 12-14-2018, 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by markcjr

I thought people didn't really like the Renegade in chop? I could be completely wrong as I've never skied it but I thought people were stoked on it for high-speed charging in fresh pow but then most people thought it kicked their ass once it got too choppy? I can vaguely recall one reviewer on this forum saying something to the effect of "it's the only ski that I feel beat up with after an all-day session". No horse in this race so I'm just genuinely curious, if most people are using it in fresh ,such as the review we just saw, shouldn't really be much of a problem right? I get it if you want a stiffer ski to blast through chop though.

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The models that'll kick your ass in set up shit have the Hals construction/wood sidewalls.

**Self Jupiter** · 12-14-2018, 08:22 PM

Mine are ‘15, 196, wood sidewall no vibevail

**skinipenem** · 12-14-2018, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Self Jupiter

REN is awesome in soft chop. Amazing in untracked and awesome on the chop but still soft runs. Once it’s crud and moguls, with some chop but with chop as the minority and crud the majority, I’d rather be on different skis.

ETA and by ‘awesome’ I mean it retains that frictionless rocket ship quality.

"Frictionless rocketship quality" - that is where the shit is at on the rens!!

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**reckless toboggan** · 12-14-2018, 09:32 PM

I feel like the EHP and the Ren's have a similar top end with a thick c-hair going to the Ren, but as the ideal Ren conditions drop off as the day goes on, the EHP is still completely relevant when the Ren has become a chore to ski.

Straight up bring the ehp back. Start with the pilsner graphic.

You gain a bit in absolutely ideal conditions with the Ren's. But the EHPs are very very close, and, IMHO, shine through more conditions for days on end for where I ski (horse, pass, revy).

They both have the frictionless rocketship quality, IMHO the ehp keeps that quality much longer through the days as the snow deteriorates.

YMMV

Wondering if the new RENEGLADE combines a bit of old Ren and EHP, or is it really now just a soft Ren that is mostly for touring perfect movie snow?