New trend - Wide range 1x 8, 9, or 10 speed?

[Jonny Snow]

New standards are cool only when I come up with them.

For years I've been wanting a wide range 8-speed setup on a narrower cassette with a dishless rear wheel. Like Eagle 12-speed spacing on a Hope single speed hub cassette body. It would use a shorter version of an XD driver freehub body, to get a 10t or 9t small cog.

Currently I'm running wide range 1x10 and am really getting the setup dialed in. Looks like there are more and more solid parts available to make it work better. You can run any of the new wide range 11 or 12-speed derailleurs with 10, 9 or 8-speed cassettes with the correct shifter.

Lots of interesting discussion here:

http://forums.mtbr.com/drivetrain-sh...e-1064071.html

This will blow your mind:

[Beaver]

I put a one-up 42 sprocket on an 8 speed about 3 years ago. 1x8 worked just a good as my current 1x10.

[jm2e]

I thought they’d come out with an ebike drivetrain that did that.


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[Jonny Snow]

I thought they’d come out with an ebike drivetrain that did that.


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Yeah the EX-1 8-speed drivetrain seemed very interesting, but has a few major drawbacks:

- $400 cassette
- Poor gear ratio spacing in the low gears (huge jumps)
- Proprietary cog spacing, not normal 8-speed
- Cassette overall doesn't use entire freehub body width

In the time between EX-1 was announced and when it actually came to market, lots of other options have become available. I can get a Garbaruk 10sp 11-45 for $200 from Europe, but just got a e13 9-42t 10spd on closeout for $135. Similar range and weight, half the cost. Then there's the Praxis around $100 and Sunrace cassettes around $50.

[XXX-er]

that ^^ probably isnt going to last very long on an E-bike, in fact none of the self powered HW is made for E-bikes which are heavier/ have more power ...think about it

[jamal]

Here's the thing, people THINK they want a wide range 8-speed setup, but the changes in pedaling cadence from gear to gear will be huge.

Shimano's 11 speed cassettes go on existing 7/8/9spd freehubs, and are really inexpensive, so I don't see the point. An 11-speed SLX cassette, shifter, and RD is $137 on jenson right now.

[Jonny Snow]

that ^^ probably isnt going to last very long on an E-bike, in fact none of the self powered HW is made for E-bikes which are heavier/ have more power ...think about it

We're not talking about using anything on an e-bike.

[toast2266]

Here's the thing, people THINK they want a wide range 8-speed setup, but the changes in pedaling cadence from gear to gear will be huge.

Shimano's 11 speed cassettes go on existing 7/8/9spd freehubs, and are really inexpensive, so I don't see the point. An 11-speed SLX cassette, shifter, and RD is $137 on jenson right now.

Even the changes in cadence on Shimano's existing wide range 11 speed cassettes is annoying. 37 -> 46 is too much.

[Jonny Snow]

Here's the thing, people THINK they want a wide range 8-speed setup, but the changes in pedaling cadence from gear to gear will be huge.

I'd be perfectly happy with an 11-42t 8-speed with the same gears as the 9-speed I posted above, minus the 50t. The change in ratio is under 20%, and the lowest gears have spacing around 15%.


10 speed: 11, 13, 15, 18, 21, 24, 28, 32, 36, 42
8 speed: 11, 13, 16, 20, 24, 30, 36, 42

And make the 8-speed 300g and under $100. You'll sell thousands.

[jamal]

Even the changes in cadence on Shimano's existing wide range 11 speed cassettes is annoying. 37 -> 46 is too much.

Yeah I went with 11-42 because of that, but a friend has it and doesn't seem to mind. I pedaled it around a bit and it seemed ok. The sunrace 11-46 goes 36-40-46, which is kind of the otherside, and too close up there. This site is really good for comparing setups

http://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=...40,46&UF2=2240

[toast2266]

Yeah I went with 11-42 because of that, but a friend has it and doesn't seem to mind. I pedaled it around a bit and it seemed ok. The sunrace 11-46 goes 36-40-46, which is kind of the otherside, and too close up there. This site is really good for comparing setups

http://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=...40,46&UF2=2240

Yeah, lots of people seem to get along with them. But I normally ride sram, and every time I get on one of those wide range Shimanos I get annoyed. I guess I'm a delicate flower.

I didn't mind the 39 -> 46 jump on the e13 though.

[Jonny Snow]

I like the spacing on the 11-46t Sunrace 10 speed:

11, 13, 15, 18, 21, 24, 28, 34, 40, 46

[jono]

I didn't mind the 39 -> 46 jump on the e13 though.

Yup. If you're going to have a bigger jump it should be at the ends of the range, IMHO. Bottom end preferred, but a bigger step to either a bail out gear or a big top gear I can live with easier than big steps between gears I plan to use a lot.

Not sure I see enough range for either of those with less than 5:1 total range, though. Definitely not interested in 1x8, 9 or 10 for anything "all mountain."

[cmcrawfo]

I don't see the advantage to running a 1x8 or 1x9 compared to a 1x10 or 1x11. I have hacked together 1x9's and prefer the small gaps that come with more gears.

[Jonny Snow]

I personally always sit and grind when climbing, so I like a tight grouping of the low gears.

[shirk]

I am going to hold out for a 6spd wide ratio.

6spd or bust.

[El Chupacabra]

I am going to hold out for a 6spd wide ratio.

6spd or bust.

On a thread-on freewheel.

[stuckathuntermtn]

If you're not a meth head troll from Vermont's armpit, you realize that the jumps in a 1x8 wide range would be insane and would probably never shift properly.
More gears on the back actually makes sense sometimes. Think about car transmissions.

[stuckathuntermtn]

I apologise to the great state of Vermont. White River Junction is its armpit.
Rutland is its malignant testicular toomah. Although the skiing is probably un-fucking-believable right now. So definitely talk about bikes.

[Jonny Snow]

If you're not a meth head troll from Vermont's armpit, you realize that the jumps in a 1x8 wide range would be insane and would probably never shift properly.
More gears on the back actually makes sense sometimes. Think about car transmissions.

8 speed: 11, 13, 16, 20, 24, 30, 36, 42

That's totally fine spacing.

[stuckathuntermtn]

STFU, rogie

[cmcrawfo]

8 speed: 11, 13, 16, 20, 24, 30, 36, 42

That's totally fine spacing.

But why? When the current standard is better?

Is this just weight wenie shit?

[Vt-Freeheel]

What do you expect from Highway Star?

[Jonny Snow]

But why? When the current standard is better?

Is this just weight weenie shit?

Actually there's many good reasons. Say you were to build a 8 speed cassette with 11 speed spacing, on a correspondingly shorter freehub body. The overall width of the cassette would be approximately 10mm less. This would have the following benefits:

- Significantly lower weight due to the shorter freehub body and less cogs, approximately 30% less unsprung, rotating weight
- Lower manufacturing and material costs, especially with machined steel dome cassettes like SRAM and Garbaruk
- Dishless (centered) hub flange spacing on 142mm or 148mm hubs, and extra wide dishless on 157mm (150mm DH) hubs. This builds a stronger or lighter wheel that can use the same spoke length on both sides
- Less chain angle on the small and large cogs, resulting in less wear, friction and no backpedaling problems
- Less gears means faster shifting across the ratio range, important for 1x
- A 9-42t 8-speed would have nearly the same range as 10-50t eagle

It's a REALLY good idea. There's already at least a half dozen freehub standards around right now, what's the big deal about another? There's been a variety of them in the past.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html

[cmcrawfo]

I wouldn't refer to the weight savings as significant.

Lower manufacturing cost due to less material will be rapidly off set by lower production numbers across all ranges.

I haven't had chain line or back pedal problems personally, so that's clearly something that can be engineered out, without the introduction of a new standard.

It's not the 90's any more. Wheel tech is super dialed, despite the inherent limitations. I used to smash a wheel a month racing xc. I probably did 2 wheels in the last 7 years on a DH diet... one was a front.

Less gears means bigger jumps, challenges for managing cadence. Important for both recreationalists and racers.

Nearly the same range, bigger gear jumps. Not better.

It's not a fantastic idea. Sure, it's an idea. 10-15 years ago it would have been an amazing idea. Right now the market is fatigued with new standards. Little appetite for marginal gains, particularly in designs that appear to be moving backwards. Not going to sell, except to a boutique niche