Do you prefer Camber vs. No Camber in a backcountry ski?

[margotron]

Assuming the camber falls in the 'normal' amount, say, 2-4mm.

I can't decide between the 4FRNT Raven (flat camber) and a cambered ski like Line Sick Day Tourist or Black Crows Freebird Navis. Similar lengths and weights and widths. Difference is shape and mount.

Raven is relatively straight (120/104/112) with a high turn radius (29m) and -6cm mount. The other two are standard (137/104/120sh) and -10cm mount.

Having no experience skinning and no backcountry experience, can someone set me straight on the pros and cons of each design? I live in Montana for reference.

Huge thanks to all you experts out there willing to share your wisdom. I'm not trying to go bananas ultralight. These will be mounted with shifts, skiid inbounds occasionally, and used on days sub 5k vertical.

[auvgeek]

Since you've asked this type of question a few times now, I give you an honest answer: nobody can decide these things for you.

There is no right or wrong answer here. It's really personal preference, and asking what we prefer won't really help you decide what you prefer.

While you'll likely encounter more challenging conditions in the backcountry, snow is still snow and skiing is still skiing. Your likes and dislikes inbounds are a good starting point. The only real caveat I can think of is serious reverse camber can be tough on icy skin tracks because there's not enough contact area for the skins to grip. The other one that's commonly discussed is a more-rearward mount point helps with kickturns. They're not wrong, but I'm about the least flexible person on the planet and I would still choose a ski with a progressive mount point because I like the way they ski.

All other ski characteristics are the same for the bc as they are for inbounds. The kind of stuff we all know: Long radius skis hook up less in funky snow. Short radius skis can be easier on the (seemingly inevitable) luge track back to the car. Camber provides more energy/pop out of turns. Zero camber planes better in perfect pow. More rocker is better in pow but worse on firm snow. et cetera

So for inbounds, do you like:

- camber or no camber?
- more or less sidecut?
- progressive or traditional mount points?

Then there's the ever-nebulous "feel" of the ski, which is just as important as all the other characteristics you mentioned.

[SUPERIOR]

Maybe I’m crazy, but I’d say 2-4mm of camber isn’t going to make it or break it for you.

My criteria would focus on the stiffness, turn radius and rocker.

For example, I ski a stiff, heavy-ish moment Belafonte with positive camber, 27m turn radius and tip rocker all over the Jackson Hole Resort backcountry. I need a big ski that can handle everything from pow to spring conditions in high alpine zones. It’s perfect.

Yet my powder touring rig is a flat camber rockered praxis GPO used for midwinter tree skiing on Teton Pass and the Titty National Park.

For me, having a stiff, heavy ski for big lines in the alpine is key. I would not want to ski anything lighter in this category, as my main entry and exit point is the tram and resort.

However, if you’re only foot powered and only skiing powder, you might want something much less aggressive than me.

I will be buying a stiff mid weight touring rig for spring skiing this year. It will have tip rocker and hopefully some camber. This will be a great low tide ski compared to the GPOs.



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[bodywhomper]

What is your favorite ski that you feel comfortable and have fun using in all conditions? Mount those with touring bindings, and that's your baseline starting point.

[waxoff]

I can't decide between the 4FRNT Raven (flat camber) and a cambered ski

It doesn't really matter how you decide on this, because eventually you'll be wondering what you'd had experienced had you decided going with the other alternative. So the answer to this question is really as simple as the question itself, get one pair of each and enjoy the differencies! N=N+1

Save money, buy used, resell if you don't click at all with them. After some time you'll get a clearer picture of your own preferences (and more skis!).

[toast2266]

Of all the differences between the raven and the sick day, I think the difference in camber will be one of the least noticeable.

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[Andyski]

Demo a flat/reverse ski before buying. Some people love it (me) so people hate the “greasy” feel.

[cravenmorhead]

Yeah avugeek got it in one.

[sruffian]

Maybe I’m crazy, but I’d say 2-4mm of camber isn’t going to make it or break it for you.

My criteria would focus on the stiffness, turn radius and rocker.

For example, I ski a stiff, heavy-ish moment Belafonte with positive camber, 27m turn radius and tip rocker all over the Jackson Hole Resort backcountry. I need a big ski that can handle everything from pow to spring conditions in high alpine zones. It’s perfect.

Yet my powder touring rig is a flat camber rockered praxis GPO used for midwinter tree skiing on Teton Pass and the Titty National Park.

For me, having a stiff, heavy ski for big lines in the alpine is key. I would not want to ski anything lighter in this category, as my main entry and exit point is the tram and resort.

However, if you’re only foot powered and only skiing powder, you might want something much less aggressive than me.

I will be buying a stiff mid weight touring rig for spring skiing this year. It will have tip rocker and hopefully some camber. This will be a great low tide ski compared to the GPOs.



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Hit me up if you're interested in a pair of the belafonte tour version of the moment tallac (last year's version). Basically a belafonte in a <1800g layup. Things rip when you can open them up. Very on the fence about selling them, but it sounds like you'd like them more than I do. Current mount is rad 2's

[PNWbrit]

Having no experience skinning and no backcountry experience

What particular ski you should buy is last of your concerns.

[GeezerSteve]

What particular ski you should buy is last of your concerns.

this

[jorion]

I don’t think people acknowledge enough how different bc skiing is from resort skiing, probably because we all get used to it. I wasn’t prepared for just how much of an adjustment it would be.

This is the time of year to buy gear. Get a good deal on something popular that you can sell for a decent price if you don’t like it. I got a good deal on Wailer 112s as my first bc ski. I hated them but it was easy to sell them, and after that I had a much better sense of what I wanted.

To actually answer your question, I think my full rocker bmt94s are awesome for skiing weird ass snow, and they haven’t bothered me in the skin track. They also have enough edge hold for me. This is a personal decision though based on my skills and preferences.

[margotron]

What particular ski you should buy is last of your concerns.

this

So should I mount my Kartel 116s for BC use?

/s/

I'm trying here guys. Only so much can be done with a broken leg. If your goal is to keep people out of the sport you're doing a good job.

Appreciate the replies everyone. Well aware I have a lot to learn.

[Mofro261]

So should I mount my Kartel 116s for BC use?

Yes.

Or No.

[auvgeek]

Moment said in another thread they could do a 110-waisted Bibby Tour. Or a tour Kartel 108. You take an avy class (and WFR) yet? Don't forget to budget for those.

Only so much can be done with a broken leg.

If you haven't yet, read Snow Sense and Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain. It'll be a good start.

[margotron]

I have my WFR, avy class got derailed by the leg break unfortunately. Super excited about that!

Moment said in another thread they could do a 110-waisted Bibby Tour. Or a tour Kartel 108. You take an avy class (and WFR) yet? Don't forget to budget for those.

a 110 waist Bibby Tour? Tour kartel? Too many options. I do love those skis though, having owned a bibby and currently a kartel

[auvgeek]

a 110 waist Bibby Tour? Tour kartel? Too many options. I do love those skis though, having owned a bibby and currently a kartel

Not trying to confuse you further. My point is stick with what you know and love.

[3PinGrin]

So should I mount my Kartel 116s for BC use?

/s/

I'm trying here guys. Only so much can be done with a broken leg. If your goal is to keep people out of the sport you're doing a good job.

Appreciate the replies everyone. Well aware I have a lot to learn.

Hey margotron,
Not sure of the backstory on the broken leg, but I am in Helena and would be happy to tour with you sometime if you would like to get acquainted with backcountry skiing. PM me if interested.

[PNWbrit]

Yes.

Or No.

^ This is good advice.

Well done on the avy course and WFR.

Have you ski toured at all? Some really, realy great, avid skiers just don't like it (PM oftpiste). I wouldn't spend a shitload of money on latest and greatest gear until you know you do.

Equally I wouldn't spend a small fortune on heavy touring gear (because like almost everyone you'll end up going light weight eventually) You mention Only sub 5k days... 5k is pretty good schlep for lots of folks especially until you understand how to be efficient going up hill.

Forget the fancy new Salomon binding and get some used dynafits, ions or kingpins from the rush of people "upgrading".

Ski? pick something light, forgiving, toward middle of the quiver size, something you already know and like. Doesn't matter if they're beat up as you're not going to be putting very many miles on them compared to riding lifts. What miles you are though are going to be with wobbly legs and on often horrible snow something that will help that is really, really good idea.

If your goal is to keep people out of the sport you're doing a good job.

Appreciate the replies everyone.

The Black Crows you previously pm'd me about would be a good choice ( as I mentioned)... but in your place I wouldn't buy them new.

[margotron]

Does anyone have any backcountry book recs?

Hey margotron,
Not sure of the backstory on the broken leg, but I am in Helena and would be happy to tour with you sometime if you would like to get acquainted with backcountry skiing. PM me if interested.

I would love that! My leg is still brokeded for awhile yet but I will hit you up. My GF was just in Helena for a water rights conference; she quite liked it (we are in Missoula which I'm guessing you picked up on).

Not trying to confuse you further. My point is stick with what you know and love.

Good advice. That would be the route if I could afford a new custom layup. trying to shoot the moon and both be picky about a ski and get it on deep discount. There's some blemish 4frnts I can get for $300 shipped, never drilled. Something like the graphic is misprinted.

^ This is good advice.

Well done on the avy course and WFR.

Have you ski toured at all? Some really, realy great, avid skiers just don't like it (PM oftpiste). I wouldn't spend a shitload of money on latest and greatest gear until you know you do.

Equally I wouldn't spend a small fortune on heavy touring gear (because like almost everyone you'll end up going light weight eventually) You mention Only sub 5k days... 5k is pretty good schlep for lots of folks especially until you understand how to be efficient going up hill.

Forget the fancy new Salomon binding and get some used dynafits, ions or kingpins from the rush of people "upgrading".

Ski? pick something light, forgiving, toward middle of the quiver size, something you already know and like. Doesn't matter if they're beat up as you're not going to be putting very many miles on them compared to riding lifts. What miles you are though are going to be with wobbly legs and on often horrible snow something that will help that is really, really good idea.

The Black Crows you previously pm'd me about would be a good choice ( as I mentioned)... but in your place I wouldn't buy them new.

Fantastic advice, thank you! I have not ski toured. The last couple years I've said this is the year and instead just kept pounding days at the resort. Breaking my leg was a blessing in a way because it made me stop doing that.

I am doing my damndest to spend not very much. I'd like to keep it under $1k on the whole BC setup. doable? Cost is a reason I had to strike those black crows off the list sadly. I'm in forestry school after all! used gear is the name of the game.

And I suspect 5k will be a good shlep for me included, especially sans ultra-light gear. But almost no matter what set up i get, I'll be touring on lighter gear than my friends on frame bindings. Buuut most of them are career forest fire fighters who spend more time walking up and down mountains than me.

[PNWbrit]

https://www.amazon.com/Backcountry-S.../dp/1594850380



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[Supermoon]

I have no skin in the game here (see what I did there?).... but there is a set of dynafit skis with dynafits for $250 on gear swap. Hard to pass on that if they are the size you're looking for IMO. Very low risk, could flip it for what you're into them pretty easy.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ts-275-shipped

[GeezerSteve]

Yes.

Or No.

This covers the range of options. Heed it

[bodywhomper]

if you mean boots/skis/skins/bindings, definitely. you can get a dynafit setup here with skins for <= $500, boots probably for around the same or less (depending what you get)

if you add in b/s/p maybe a little more but you certainly can work the whole kit under $1k. IMO if you're just going skis/skins/boots/bindings you can get a pretty damn nice setup used for $1k

Beacon, probe, shovel?

You could also get frame bindings, used skis that you like (e.g. bibby's), and skins and tour in your alpine boots.

Don't forget the GSA go-pro setup.

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[margotron]

Beacon, probe, shovel?

You could also get frame bindings, used skis that you like (e.g. bibby's), and skins and tour in your alpine boots.

Don't forget the GSA go-pro setup.

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GoPro must be 90 grams. I'll leave it behind, I want to stay nice and spry.