Speed kills - collisions #RideAnotherDay

[Ottime]

^^^^top of granite Chief?

I see kids and sometimes adults friends of skiers in way over the head often. If anyone in your group is scared, you’ve brought them in to deep.

[Harry]

I never got around to researching the back story until today.
600 vert hill. Mt Hogadon in WY.

Snowboarder and kid killed instantly. Mom knocked out and paralyzed.

http://www.nsaa.org/media/304373/Rid...yS17lo_res.pdf

This family travels to ski resorts talking about their experience. Big Sky’s new Patrol Director grew up skiing that same little hill in WY and he makes their presentation mandatory attendance for all patrollers. As a local dignitary I was invited to sit in.

Very moving presentation. They stressed how the collision affected their family. How they are committed to making something good come out of the tragedy. Very strong people. They still ski every weekend as a family at that same ski area.


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[optics]

Skiing next to the kiddos as opposed to behind them on runs where you have the space definitely makes sense too.

When I’m on those crazy crowded weekend groomers with my kid I ski maybe 10 feet behind him - like directly behind - and match his turns. Basically running a screen.

If someone comes flailing from behind, I’m in the way. It has happened. And if someone comes flailing from the side, I’ll be more likely to see them before him and can divert him and/or get myself in the way.

[lake_effect]

When I’m on those crazy crowded weekend groomers with my kid I ski maybe 10 feet behind him - like directly behind - and match his turns. Basically running a screen.

If someone comes flailing from behind, I’m in the way. It has happened. And if someone comes flailing from the side, I’ll be more likely to see them before him and can divert him and/or get myself in the way.

That's usually my go to when its busy too. I will give a little more space, maybe 20-30 feet but I usually always have an eye up hill for incoming Jerry missiles.

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[old goat]

^^^^top of granite Chief?
.

Cattrack to Sunspot and D8, they were heading down Sunspot, firm wind buff.

When I’m on those crazy crowded weekend groomers with my kid I ski maybe 10 feet behind him - like directly behind - and match his turns. Basically running a screen.

If someone comes flailing from behind, I’m in the way. It has happened. And if someone comes flailing from the side, I’ll be more likely to see them before him and can divert him and/or get myself in the way.

If someone comes down completely out of control straight at you that might work. The other scenario is someone turns around you into the kid, or they see they can't turn and pick up too much speed and hit someone or something else. My suggestion is either alongside if there's lots of room (see my previous post) or behind them but no closer than you would follow a stranger--so plenty of room after they pass you to turn safely between the two of you to slow down. That way you're still protecting them from above. When people follow each other closely matching turns they take up a lot of room and make it hard to pass except at high speed. But this is all an educated guess; I've never seen any kind of data about it. We were lucky, our kids were never hit.

[TBS]

Perspective of long time volunteer coach with adaptive ski programs...
We usually have two blockers for each participant. Blockers ski behind our athlete at a diagonal so that the three of us form a wedge. Distance from athlete (ie size of wedge) depends on their speed plus speed and density of surrounding traffic. Wedge tightens as traffic and speed differentials increase.

If there’s only one blocker we use the side of the run as the second blocker.

We wear orange bibs as well. Not sure whether these create a deterrent or a target. I also spend most of the time watching uphill for bogies and devising intercept vectors.

Never had one of my kids hit, although I’ve taken several hits for them. Almost every time it’s another small kid who bounces off me.

Holiday weeks/weekends are the worst. One time we were stopped just downhill and behind a slow skiing banner, only to have some middle school sized boy crash into the banner at speed. Fortunately for my athlete (but not for the crasher) I used my size and hockey experience to change his vector sufficiently...

[LongShortLong]

Long I get the logic here but where is a ski race course that has public access. The same logic is used for teenage drivers speeding cars. It is a completely valid point that you raise about all the uncertainties but I think that telling them to find a racecourse is ignoring a problem. There are places to go fast and there are places to go slow and cruise you just have to be able to educate people on where those places are.

I hear you. The logic is the same in both cases. Where do you propose teenagers speed cars? Find a race venue, join the club, take the training. Otherwise they're risking someone else's life, health, or career (and their own).

The places where it's safe are those where access to the run (or roadway) is controlled. When the general public may be present, it is usually not safe to go fast. There's good reasons races have crash barriers, restricted access, rules, protective gear, and standby EMTs.

There are some public events - banked slaloms and the like. There's often a public race league with minimal fees.

For teenagers - they have bad judgment. I don't see a 100% solution. Marking and clipping passes helps start the thinking process. Some of them are gonna die young. Some will take others with them.

[Ottime]

It’s not a teenager problem. The guy who hit my son said he had been skiing for 50 years. So I’m pretty sure he was over 20.

[Vitamin I]

Of course a fatal collision is a serious tragedy, but it's interesting that many comments here are about behaviors which aren't even violations of any rules or safety codes at all.

...The number of gaper morons launching side hits late in the day on busy groomers/ski out at WB seems worse this year, my favourite is moron snowboarders jumping backside who can't see where they are landing. Tempting to ski through the edge of those runs and drop a shoulder on these idiots....

I don't get it. The way you described these "gaper morons", it sounds like they're not violating any Whistler/Blackcomb rule or code whatsoever. If people who like side hits tempt you to violate a Whistler/Blackcomb code by "dropping a shoulder" on them, you could instead just ask Whistler to make a new rule banning side hits or whatever is annoying you in this case here. Or maybe you could choose to ski somewhere else that has other rules you like better?

...Match the speed of the people around you...

What? I've never heard of ANY ski resort that has that rule. Am I missing some specific "designated family zones" that have this rule? Maybe somebody else here can recommend a resort for you with that rule...

...If you need to bomb a slope, find a race course...

What? Plenty of ski areas have no speed limit at all, except in designated "slow zones" and "family zones". I know Whistler has no speed limit outside those designated zones, so they enforce control instead of speed there. If you want a resort with speed limits, you can probably find a resort that has a "slow zone" that you might like.

...If anyone in your group is scared, you’ve brought them in to deep.

What? What's wrong with being scared? IMO, as long as they can self-rescue, without relying on patrol or passers-by, then let them get as scared as they want. Heck, people pay like $700 million per year to be scared at horror movies. Many people love to be scared.

...When people follow each other closely matching turns they take up a lot of room and make it hard to pass except at high speed...

I agree with this. I'd like for resorts to make rules against organized skier formations who cross 6 lanes of traffic, etc. It's not trivial for faster skiers to learn all the risk management to safely pass unpredictable groups like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_n0VIz9RZ4&t=42

.

[Viva]

You're trying too hard, Vitamin I.

[old goat]

Of course a fatal collision is a serious tragedy, but it's interesting that many comments here are about behaviors which aren't even violations of any rules or safety codes at all.



I don't get it. The way you described these "gaper morons", it sounds like they're not violating any Whistler/Blackcomb rule or code whatsoever. If people who like side hits tempt you to violate a Whistler/Blackcomb code by "dropping a shoulder" on them, you could instead just ask Whistler to make a new rule banning side hits or whatever is annoying you in this case here. Or maybe you could choose to ski somewhere else that has other rules you like better?



What? I've never heard of ANY ski resort that has that rule. Am I missing some specific "designated family zones" that have this rule? Maybe somebody else here can recommend a resort for you with that rule...



What? Plenty of ski areas have no speed limit at all, except in designated "slow zones" and "family zones". I know Whistler has no speed limit outside those designated zones, so they enforce control instead of speed there. If you want a resort with speed limits, you can probably find a resort that has a "slow zone" that you might like.



What? What's wrong with being scared? IMO, as long as they can self-rescue, without relying on patrol or passers-by, then let them get as scared as they want. Heck, people pay like $700 million per year to be scared at horror movies. Many people love to be scared.



I agree with this. I'd like for resorts to make rules against organized skier formations who cross 6 lanes of traffic, etc. It's not trivial for faster skiers to learn all the risk management to safely pass unpredictable groups like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_n0VIz9RZ4&t=42

.

You don't have to break any specific rules to be guilty of doing something dangerous. Anyway, when you ski into the person ahead you, you have most definitely broken a rule.
Since you like splitting hairs--when you ski off a groomed cat track to get a side hit and then re-nenter the groomed track the rule requires you to yield to the person in the track. (When I pass below these idiots I yell "below you" so they know I'm there.)

[Ottime]

Vitiamin I, I’m not talking about a little above one’s head, but unable to move due to fear. I’ve seen plenty of people bring their new to skiing friends on slopes where they just freeze up. For instance, stuck five
Feet below the entrance to the Wall at Kirkwood. And entire group. Meanwhile people are skiing around them to get in. One of those Scared folks slipped, falls and takes out two skiers on the slope below them as they slide down the face with no ability to self arrest.

There is a limit on where you should drag your friends and family.

A little scared sure. Scared stiff; that is just stupid and reckless.

[old goat]

Vitiamin I, I’m not talking about a little above one’s head, but unable to move due to fear. I’ve seen plenty of people bring their new to skiing friends on slopes where they just freeze up. For instance, stuck five
Feet below the entrance to the Wall at Kirkwood. And entire group. Meanwhile people are skiing around them to get in. One of those Scared folks slipped, falls and takes out two skiers on the slope below them as they slide down the face with no ability to self arrest.

There is a limit on where you should drag your friends and family.

A little scared sure. Scared stiff; that is just stupid and reckless.

First year they opened the wall the entry was a six inch wide traverse across a 15 foot high vertical cornice face. (Before that lift opened it was described as being for intermediate skiers and above.) There was a skull and crossbones at the lift line but that didn't deter one woman who rode up and froze. We rode the lift 3 times--she was up there the first time and still up there the last. My wife fell off that traverse, although she didn't go anywhere in the soft snow. I have ridden that lift and watched 6 different people fall at the top and slide to the bottom.

[caderader]

I like to ski fast and I feel good about my people avoidance after growing up skiing uber-crowded slopes in NC on holiday weekends. These days though I'm extremely cognizant of other slower skiers, trail merge points, and especially KIDS.

I'll completely shut it down if it looks like I'm going to have to make a close pass and slowly work closer until I can guarantee I can pass safely and then put the hammer down again. I'm hyper aware of families and beginner skiers. I don't even like to put myself in positions where it might make them feel remotely uncomfortable even if I have ample clearance. Watching people fly by kids with close margins, especially back-seat out of control skiers who are torquing their upper body around to turn make my blood boil! Sometimes shutting it down when I'm rolling is extremely frustrating but as someone said earlier, it's so not about me or my ridiculously petty first world problem of not being able to ski the speed I want, it's about the safety of those I'm sharing the slope with.

This is also why one of my number one factors when picking a destination beyond snow and terrain is less visited ski areas!

[skiJ]

I like to ski fast and I feel good about my people avoidance after growing up skiing uber-crowded slopes in NC on holiday weekends. These days though I'm extremely cognizant of other slower skiers, trail merge points, and especially KIDS.

I'll completely shut it down if it looks like I'm going to have to make a close pass and slowly work closer until I can guarantee I can pass safely and then put the hammer down again. I'm hyper aware of families and beginner skiers. I don't even like to put myself in positions where it might make them feel remotely uncomfortable even if I have ample clearance. Watching people fly by kids with close margins, especially back-seat out of control skiers who are torquing their upper body around to turn make my blood boil! Sometimes shutting it down when I'm rolling is extremely frustrating but as someone said earlier, it's so not about me or my ridiculously petty first world problem of not being able to ski the speed I want, it's about the safety of those I'm sharing the slope with.

This is also why one of my number one factors when picking a destination beyond snow and terrain is less visited ski areas!

Thank you, cade.

tj

[californiagrown]

I like to ski fast and I feel good about my people avoidance after growing up skiing uber-crowded slopes in NC on holiday weekends. These days though I'm extremely cognizant of other slower skiers, trail merge points, and especially KIDS.

I'll completely shut it down if it looks like I'm going to have to make a close pass and slowly work closer until I can guarantee I can pass safely and then put the hammer down again. I'm hyper aware of families and beginner skiers. I don't even like to put myself in positions where it might make them feel remotely uncomfortable even if I have ample clearance. Watching people fly by kids with close margins, especially back-seat out of control skiers who are torquing their upper body around to turn make my blood boil!

Yep, pretty much this. Thing is, you have to reach a certain skill and experience level to full grasp this understanding. Usually have had one close call prior to figuring it out.

I open er up on pow days or the random weekday solo groomer with soft snow. Otherwise, the risk of losing/catching an edge at high speed and hurting myself or someone else isn't worth it. And if I'm on a run that ski school is on, fuck me... Ski school/lessons have 100% priority.

[gramboh]

Of course a fatal collision is a serious tragedy, but it's interesting that many comments here are about behaviors which aren't even violations of any rules or safety codes at all.



I don't get it. The way you described these "gaper morons", it sounds like they're not violating any Whistler/Blackcomb rule or code whatsoever. If people who like side hits tempt you to violate a Whistler/Blackcomb code by "dropping a shoulder" on them, you could instead just ask Whistler to make a new rule banning side hits or whatever is annoying you in this case here. Or maybe you could choose to ski somewhere else that has other rules you like better?
.

Goat touched on it but the issue is not being able to safely merge back into a crowded groomer after a side hit (especially boarders jumping backside), I see close calls coming down Expressway to Red chair pretty much every time I am up there. As usual, actually skilled riders are not the problem, it's wanna be Candide/T-Rice's that pose the risk and they are the ones I am not yielding to and they will be on the losing end if they run into me. I do actually think they should close off the side hits on Glacier Road on Blackcomb and upper Expressway (the lower ones down toward Tokum are fine, much wider run and less traffic)... Also I'm not worried about bad skiers crashing into me, I'm worried about kids and not just my own. It's about expecting reasonable behaviour.

[old goat]

Goat touched on it but the issue is not being able to safely merge back into a crowded groomer after a side hit (especially boarders jumping backside), I see close calls coming down Expressway to Red chair pretty much every time I am up there. As usual, actually skilled riders are not the problem, it's wanna be Candide/T-Rice's that pose the risk and they are the ones I am not yielding to and they will be on the losing end if they run into me. I do actually think they should close off the side hits on Glacier Road on Blackcomb and upper Expressway (the lower ones down toward Tokum are fine, much wider run and less traffic)... Also I'm not worried about bad skiers crashing into me, I'm worried about kids and not just my own. It's about expecting reasonable behaviour.

coming back from Sherwood on the groomer at Alpine, the narrow cat track takes a blind 180. People were cutting the corner and dropping down 6 feet onto the cat track, or on top of unlucky skiers. Patrol finally roped it off, which stops most but not all.

[Island Bay]

50mph is not that quick.

Reine Barkered going "not that quick"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAxp...ture=emb_title

Ok, so it's 63mph.

[Ottime]

Well that is a controlled run like stuck was suggesting.