LCC Road closure conspiracy?

[Benny Profane]

Uber has autonomous trucks hauling commercial freight in AZ right now: https://www.cnet.com/news/uber-self-...-move-freight/ It's only rural long-haul routes in a snow-free state, but it's a reality right now. Computers already control a multitude of mission-critical systems.



Exactly. Humans are not going to get better at driving, but computers are only going to improve. The fundamentals of driving in the snow are not that complicated: slow down, manage power delivery, increase following/stopping distance. Any company that invests in something like this in places where it snows regularly is probably going to use AWD vehicles equipped with winter tires half the year anyway.



Pro detailers can make the dirtiest interiors like new in an hour for $200. Do that once a month and it's still pocket change compared to paying a human driver.

You have a whole lot of faith in a technology that is extremely overhyped by very rich people who stand t make billions off this stuff if it succeeds. I'm doubtful. As I said, take the bus. But, no, that involves having to interact with, ewwwww, other people. If there's one thing that's obvious about the industry leaders of Silicon Valley, they really hate other people.
Just remember, when the auto was introduced, a big selling point at that time was that they were going to fix pollution. Funny, huh? The pollution was horse shit. Cities were literally knee deep in it. Imagine NYC or Boston in August in 1898. It was disgusting. But, as always, be careful what you hope for. How's that air in SLC?

As far as your last point, really, a month?? I drove a cab in NYC. You should see the state of the back of a cab in winter after a Saturday night. And that was with a human "attendant" piloting it, choosing passengers carefully, avoiding the staggering drunks and scumbags. I garauntee that, without a driver, people are going to do all sorts of stuff, including using it for a bathroom. People, in general, and it doesn't matter what race, class and age, are slobs.

[Skidog]

It's happened multiple times. IIRC some cars got hit by a slide just below White Pine a year or three back. There was video. A pre-control accident at O'dark thirty, especially if injuries were involved, would definitely put lives at risk. More 12:00am closures are probably going to happen.



Definitely. For a while years ago they experimented with not letting people go south of the La Caille light on 210 or east of Wasatch on 209. It was a mess with hundreds of cars making laps through neighborhoods and they quietly dropped it. I don't think it lasted one season. Joetron's gravel pit parking garage would be a perfect staging area if it existed. In the meantime you could probably pick a few large parking lots that are mostly empty at that time like South Town Expo, South Town Mall, Parley's Way Walmart, etc. and make people wait there. UPD can for AWD/4WD and tire condition as people come in, and no one leaves until they say so. Maybe they could even register people somehow and have an automated station at the mouth that mails a hefty fine to anyone who wasn't checked in at a staging area prior to a certain time. IDK, just spitballing.

Dude way closer...9400...smiths/shopko lot, nearly empty. Walgreens (already a park n ride I think), mostly empty. Home depot/Fresh market, nearly empty. Those are all within 3-4 miles of the merge.

[Benny Profane]

Speaking of being careful of what you hope for, check out the picture I took below just a few weeks ago. I posted it in another thread, but, it's relevant here. It's Snowbasin few Saturdays ago at the main base. The line stretched fifty yards behind me into the parking lot at 9am. That's what happens when your snow sucks all season, and it snows twice in a week, the second on Friday. I guess. I was sleeping down in Sandy, but, after enjoying a wonderful day at Brighton on Friday, thought, hey, I have a ticket to SB, I'll drive up there and avoid the Cottonwood mayhem on Saturday. I found out that it's so much easier to get there since they put that new road in (haven't been there in a while). Fuck, it's all highway. But, duh, now that they made it so much easier to get there, well, duh, look at that fucking mess. Record day, I was told. So, yeah, be careful about easy access. Mormons like to ski in big family groups, it seems.

[Skidog]

Speaking of being careful of what you hope for, check out the picture I took below just a few weeks ago. I posted it in another thread, but, it's relevant here. It's Snowbasin few Saturdays ago at the main base. The line stretched fifty yards behind me into the parking lot at 9am. That's what happens when your snow sucks all season, and it snows twice in a week, the second on Friday. I guess. I was sleeping down in Sandy, but, after enjoying a wonderful day at Brighton on Friday, thought, hey, I have a ticket to SB, I'll drive up there and avoid the Cottonwood mayhem on Saturday. I found out that it's so much easier to get there since they put that new road in (haven't been there in a while). Fuck, it's all highway. But, duh, now that they made it so much easier to get there, well, duh, look at that fucking mess. Record day, I was told. So, yeah, be careful about easy access. Mormons like to ski in big family groups, it seems.

I doubt there are that many mormons in that crowd...most of them are shocked there are even mtns in Utah...

Snowbasin roads never close. not really the avie danger BCC/LCC present. Then they ofer an unrestricted season pass in the summer for like under $500....thats why you see what you see in that pic (for the most part). Pow Mow is the call on really deep days, but has the same issues as LCC/BCC...that roads scarier if you ask me.

[Dantheman]

You have a whole lot of faith in a technology that is extremely overhyped by very rich people who stand t make billions off this stuff if it succeeds. I'm doubtful. As I said, take the bus. But, no, that involves having to interact with, ewwwww, other people. If there's one thing that's obvious about the industry leaders of Silicon Valley, they really hate other people.
Just remember, when the auto was introduced, a big selling point at that time was that they were going to fix pollution. Funny, huh? The pollution was horse shit. Cities were literally knee deep in it. Imagine NYC or Boston in August in 1898. It was disgusting. But, as always, be careful what you hope for. How's that air in SLC?

As far as your last point, really, a month?? I drove a cab in NYC. You should see the state of the back of a cab in winter after a Saturday night. And that was with a human "attendant" piloting it, choosing passengers carefully, avoiding the staggering drunks and scumbags. I garauntee that, without a driver, people are going to do all sorts of stuff, including using it for a bathroom. People, in general, and it doesn't matter what race, class and age, are slobs.

I don't have "faith" in shit. I am simply disinclined to bet against what is essentially the 21st century space race. I certainly don't have faith that Utah's government is going to orchestrate a grandiose infastructure project that will fix this problem. See my post from last night. Personally, I don't mind public transit or other people, but "take the bus" is not a viable solution. Capacity at the existing park-n-rides is maxed out as it is.

Air quality has been steadily improving for 40 years: http://slcair.communication.utah.edu/ Click link, scroll down, and watch as a predominance of red and orange transitions to yellow-green and then mostly green. It's only going to improve as older cars get taken off the road and electrics become more common.

OK, have them cleaned every 2-3 days. Still a bargain compared to paying drivers.

Dude way closer...9400...smiths/shopko lot, nearly empty. Walgreens (already a park n ride I think), mostly empty. Home depot/Fresh market, nearly empty. Those are all within 3-4 miles of the merge.

Current park-n-rides should be off-limits since it would wreak havoc on the bus system. Spots like the smiths/shopko lot or Quarry Bend are options, but I think you'd want the staging areas a bit farther away so people get spread out a bit on the way.

[Skidog]

I don't have "faith" in shit. I am simply disinclined to bet against what is essentially the 21st century space race. I certainly don't have faith that Utah's government is going to orchestrate a grandiose infastructure project that will fix this problem. See my post from last night. Personally, I don't mind public transit or other people, but "take the bus" is not a viable solution. Capacity at the existing park-n-rides is maxed out as it is.

Air quality has been steadily improving for 40 years: http://slcair.communication.utah.edu/ Click link, scroll down, and watch as a predominance of red and orange transitions to yellow-green and then mostly green. It's only going to improve as older cars get taken off the road and electrics become more common.

OK, have them cleaned every 2-3 days. Still a bargain compared to paying drivers.



Current park-n-rides should be off-limits since it would wreak havoc on the bus system. Spots like the smiths/shopko lot or Quarry Bend are options, but I think you'd want the staging areas a bit farther away so people get spread out a bit on the way.

i still see the main issue here as being that we have road closures....no matter if we bus or drive the avalanche across the road situation exists. My solution? We totally remove tons of pollution and dont have to worry about the road a bit...hell they could save on military ammo since they wouldnt have to control the road nearly as much. You could also continue to supplement the gondi with busses and move even more people quickly. Win Win..

[Todds]

I like the idea of making the canyon one way at the busiest of times. You would only need to do it on powder days from 8am-9am and from 4pm to 5pm. It's simple. It's cheap. Traffic is only a problem a few days a year. Do we really need to spend billions of dollars and increase drive times when there is a simple solution?

They should also enforce the snow tire rules. Maybe chains should be required on 2wd cars on snow days.

How long would a gondola ride take to get me to Alta? Would it stop at Snowbird on the way up/down? I'm guessing it will take an hour or so to get the 8.4 miles to Alta. There would also be a pretty long line of people waiting to get on the thing. That isn't so bad for a powder day, but most days I get up LCC in 20 or so minutes. It would suck to spend an hour each way every time I wanted to ski. Would people choose the gondola if the the road was clear?

A snow tunnel would be expensive, but they would save a lot of money on avalanche control. If they were smart they would design it so it could be upgraded to 2 levels in the future.

Autonomous cars may be an answer in the future.

Does anyone know how much they are planning on charging for the toll?

[zion zig zag]

I like the idea of making the canyon one way at the busiest of times.

What about emergency traffic?

[Supermoon]

They should build a gondola from PC into BCC and then from BCC into LCC and the from PC into LCC. Maybe all the resorts could share a single pass. They could call it One Wasatch or something.

While we're at it they could build a lift up Superior as well.

[joetron]

All this talk of tower placement but where would the base station and parking for the gondola be located? That’s what makes that option virtually impossible

[Todds]

What about emergency traffic?

Current situation:
I know there are fire trucks at Alta and Snowbird. Do they have ambulances+staff there full time or would one need to drive up to rescue someone? The round trip drive is 50+ minutes.

If the road was one way going up (8am-9am)
Ambulance/Fire could get up pretty easy. While it was driving up they could shut down the 1 way traffic. By the time it was ready to come back down the road would be clear.

If the road was one way going down (4pm-5pm):
An ambulance trying to get up would have a problem. They would probably need to drive one or more up before 4pm and have it waiting just in case it was needed. It should be able to get down pretty easy.

Most of the emergencies happen when the lifts are running and the road would be 2 way by then.

We are only talking about a couple of hours a day for 5 days a year. Weekday (non-holiday) powder days don't normally cause big traffic.

[GPP33]

Current situation:
I know there are fire trucks at Alta and Snowbird. Do they have ambulances+staff there full time or would one need to drive up to rescue someone? The round trip drive is 50+ minutes.

If the road was one way going up (8am-9am)
Ambulance/Fire could get up pretty easy. While it was driving up they could shut down the 1 way traffic. By the time it was ready to come back down the road would be clear.

If the road was one way going down (4pm-5pm):
An ambulance trying to get up would have a problem. They would probably need to drive one or more up before 4pm and have it waiting just in case it was needed. It should be able to get down pretty easy.

Most of the emergencies happen when the lifts are running and the road would be 2 way by then.

We are only talking about a couple of hours a day for 5 days a year. Weekday (non-holiday) powder days don't normally cause big traffic.

And what about an emergency somewhere in the middle on a snow day when everyone is stuck? Making the road one way in the middle of the day means there's no way out in the morning, not gonna happen. If they built a road out the other side to PC you could do it but you can't trap people in a canyon. Banking on people only having emergencies at certain times is pretty poor planning.

[GPP33]

All this talk of tower placement but where would the base station and parking for the gondola be located? That’s what makes that option virtually impossible

Parking garage and shuttle buses. Again, Breck figured out how to manage this long ago.

[Todds]

And what about an emergency somewhere in the middle on a snow day when everyone is stuck? Making the road one way in the middle of the day means there's no way out in the morning, not gonna happen. If they built a road out the other side to PC you could do it but you can't trap people in a canyon. Banking on people only having emergencies at certain times is pretty poor planning.

The road would be one way for about 2 hours a day. Get lots of people up in the morning and lots down at the end of the day. I'm thinking the road would be one way up for about an hour and one way for about an hour. The road would be 2 way in the middle of the day and at night.

[GPP33]

ummm the reason they are closing is because they need light (daylight) to do avie control. This means pre closure avie control hasnt happened. This means a slide, while not super likely, could cross the road and kill you. Could happen when its open too, but the chances are lower as control work has been done.

Its also pretty shitty to say hey i live 14 miles from wildcat lot..i should, in order to not sit in traffic, get up 3 hours prior to opening. Im dont live 100's of miles away...14 miles should never take multiple hours.

Ok, I can see the concern if traffic starts to build before avy work and you have people sitting in avy paths like sitting ducks.

If only there was a proven method to move people up a mountain that wasn't impacted by snowy roads or poor driver skill, something that transported people at a known rate regardless of environment conditions....Maybe like some pods that hang from a wire that goes in a big loop, they could take you up in the morning and down the afternoon.

[getoutside]

ummm the reason they are closing is because they need light (daylight) to do avie control. This means pre closure avie control hasn't happened. This means a slide, while not super likely, could cross the road and kill you. Could happen when its open too, but the chances are lower as control work has been done.

Its also pretty shitty to say hey i live 14 miles from wildcat lot..i should, in order to not sit in traffic, get up 3 hours prior to opening. Im dont live 100's of miles away...14 miles should never take multiple hours.

adapt. is what it is. driving 15 every day is way more hazardous to my health than that. don't like the white-knuckle drive any more than you but while your banging on your computer, we'll be getting up earlier and skiing pow. even the 8yr old gets it but im in bcc far more than lcc.

how bout starting off with some simple steps like claymond said. address that shit and you will solve some, not nearly all, of your problems. its a start... and costs nothing but time.

[GPP33]

How long would a gondola ride take to get me to Alta? Would it stop at Snowbird on the way up/down? I'm guessing it will take an hour or so to get the 8.4 miles to Alta. There would also be a pretty long line of people waiting to get on the thing.

Detachable gondolas travel at about 15-17mph so about a half hour. You can either wait in line to load the gondola or you can wait in line in your car, you're just moving the bottle neck, but people can move better in crowded areas on foot than they can in cars, except for the ones that can't carry their skis without hitting you. Breck uses this model and it works and more people ski breck on any given weekend than ski LCC.

[zion zig zag]

Current situation:
I know there are fire trucks at Alta and Snowbird. Do they have ambulances+staff there full time or would one need to drive up to rescue someone? The round trip drive is 50+ minutes.

If the road was one way going up (8am-9am)
Ambulance/Fire could get up pretty easy. While it was driving up they could shut down the 1 way traffic. By the time it was ready to come back down the road would be clear.

If the road was one way going down (4pm-5pm):
An ambulance trying to get up would have a problem. They would probably need to drive one or more up before 4pm and have it waiting just in case it was needed. It should be able to get down pretty easy.

Most of the emergencies happen when the lifts are running and the road would be 2 way by then.

We are only talking about a couple of hours a day for 5 days a year. Weekday (non-holiday) powder days don't normally cause big traffic.

I'll call the SL County Fire Marshal and run this past him.

Typically when places do lane reversals for traffic easing (stadiums, bridges at rush hour, etc.) not only do they have at least one lane going the other direction, they also have other ways to access the site. An entire town sitting at the end of a box canyon isn't a good place to completely restrict access to/from, even if just for short periods.

[Todds]

Detachable gondolas travel at about 15-17mph so about a half hour. You can either wait in line to load the gondola or you can wait in line in your car, you're just moving the bottle neck, but people can move better in crowded areas on foot than they can in cars, except for the ones that can't carry their skis without hitting you. Breck uses this model and it works and more people ski breck on any given weekend than ski LCC.

I'd take a 30 minute gondola ride instead of driving. How sure are you sure about the 15-17mph speed? This site http://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort...-lifts/l46246/ says the
BreckConnect Gondola goes 5m/sec (11.18mph). That works out to 45 minutes. Vail has a gondola that goes 6m/s (13.42mph)

[joetron]

Parking garage and shuttle buses. Again, Breck figured out how to manage this long ago.

Are you familiar with the mouth of the Canyon?

[Todds]

I'll call the SL County Fire Marshal and run this past him.

Typically when places do lane reversals for traffic easing (stadiums, bridges at rush hour, etc.) not only do they have at least one lane going the other direction, they also have other ways to access the site. An entire town sitting at the end of a box canyon isn't a good place to completely restrict access to/from, even if just for short periods.

Agreed. Blocking access to emergency people is a bad idea. I had suggested bringing up ambulances before you closed the road to up hill traffic. Maybe you need to bring up more fire trucks also. Expensive, but cheaper than a train.



Sure

[Shredhead]

Are you familiar with the mouth of the Canyon?

Make them park further away.
Buses are still the best solution.
You can use them somewhere else, most of the season and they can sell them, if it doesn’t work.

Nobody wants to buy a used monorail or 8 mile Gondi.

[Skidog]

Ok, I can see the concern if traffic starts to build before avy work and you have people sitting in avy paths like sitting ducks.

If only there was a proven method to move people up a mountain that wasn't impacted by snowy roads or poor driver skill, something that transported people at a known rate regardless of environment conditions....Maybe like some pods that hang from a wire that goes in a big loop, they could take you up in the morning and down the afternoon.

Lol....I like you...you're funny.

Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile app

[bigdude2468]

Buses, you do understand that UTA loses money on every customer? Sales tax provides 70% of UTA's revenue and other sources another 15%, fares are squat. Buses run every 15 minutes morning and late afternoon, that's fine except the first snowflake puts the schedule out the window. The problem is the congestion happens infrequently so how do you justify buses and drivers at the ready if it snows, on a weekend? This is not a unique problem for transportation systems except in major cities the volume is consistent every morning and every evening, weekdays only. Here the volume jumps if it snows on a weekend or over the holidays, other days they don't need the equipment. The other issue is LCC and skiers are not the priority and they should not be. The parking lot on I-15 every day, morning and night is where their attention should be directed.

A gondola is a pipe dream, the EIS in itself would take years and I am not sure the FS would be all that keen on it. The problem with tolls is if its not high enough you wont get people opting to change their behavior and charge too much and you will change behavior all right, they will go elsewhere.

[The SnowShow]

Here’s what I don’t get. UDOT starts avy control for a big storm at daybreak and closes the road then? So if you go earlier, the road’s open but you’re risking possibly getting buried at the canyon bottom if a chute decides to slide?!