LCC Road closure conspiracy?

[Skidog]

The gondola would have to be broken into at least three stations minimum and would still need to be closed to the public during control work. Then there is the task of evacuation in the event of a mechanical failure, not to mention high winds. Seasonal operation and maintenance costs would be staggering.

why would it need to be closed during control work? It will be on the side of the road that avies wouldnt likely hit. Maybe i misunderstand how often does the south side of the road have avies that hit the creek? None that im aware are controlled..I mentioned evacs in another post. That would be tricky, but backup diesel gens could handle power failures. Maintenance would be no more than a train solution, in fact i'd imagine MUCH less. Anyone know what seasonal costs Snowbasin has to deal with on their gondies? They have more than one. This isnt an "ultimate solution" just one that I think is better than whats been proposed in the past, and is far more feasible than some/most that have been proposed.

The more I think about the autonomous car deal the worse I think it is. Whos footing the bill for all the cars that would be needed to move say 6000ppl a day up and down the canyon, and will sit idle mostly during the off season? You think the taxpayer? Snowbird/Alta? Shit convert it to autonomous buses. How many people can a typical UTA bus carry up at once? 100? Probably less...so say you need 600 busses, of new technology (read this as fucking EXPENSIVE). Sounds awful spendy when you break it all down...and you still havent solved the canyon closures...

[Supermoon]

At the end of the day, if it becomes easier to get up the canyon on snow days, everyone will complain about how much nicer it was when they'd just close it so all the gapers would go home.

[Skidog]

At the end of the day, if it becomes easier to get up the canyon on snow days, everyone will complain about how much nicer it was when they'd just close it so all the gapers would go home.

this is quite possibly true, but a problem i think both Alta and Snowbird would like to have...cant ever have too many paying customers eh?

[skaredshtles]

Can you imagine being *IN* the room when the traffic folks are discussing this?

"So, Brother Aaron, you're telling me that of all the transportation challenges we face, there are people complaining about how long it takes to get to a SKI AREA to ski on a powder day? And they want billions spent on a solution to this "problem"? Bitch, please."

[Danno]

this is quite possibly true, but a problem i think both Alta and Snowbird would like to have...cant ever have too many paying customers eh?

EPIC

[Danno]

it takes 10 years to built a gondola? News to me...dont think thats at all true..

could easily take 10 years from idea to construction. NEPA compliance would be pretty heinous.

[Skidog]

could easily take 10 years from idea to construction. NEPA compliance would be pretty heinous.

same with nearly any other solution on the table or imagined...snowsheds would be the easiest as its a state road. Maybe we ignore the pollution problem for the time being until the autonomous car idea comes to fruition? I mean for sure I agree snowsheds would be the quickest fix for at least part of the problem. Could even used the stupid proposed toll to pay for em.

[#######]

why would it need to be closed during control work? It will be on the side of the road that avies wouldnt likely hit. Maybe i misunderstand how often does the south side of the road have avies that hit the creek? None that im aware are controlled..I mentioned evacs in another post. That would be tricky, but backup diesel gens could handle power failures.

I've never seen one, but I imagine a they have historically...but that could be engineered around, maybe...Mechanically failure like a tree hitting the rope, causing a derailment/rope damage could shut it down for a period of days. If it would need to be spliced/repaired, a week minimum. Then there would need to be roads cut for the terminals. Repeat SOC sentiment. And since its crossing well known BC terrain theres also the NIMBY WBA to contend with. Remember SkiLink?

[Skidog]

I've never seen one, but I imagine a they have historically...but that could be engineered around, maybe...Mechanically failure like a tree hitting the rope, causing a derailment/rope damage could shut it down for a period of days. If it would need to be spliced/repaired, a week minimum. Then there would need to be roads cut for the terminals. Repeat SOC sentiment. And since its crossing well known BC terrain theres also the NIMBY WBA to contend with. Remember SkiLink?

yep...none of its easy. Hope we figure something out thats for sure.

[skifishbum]

we
werents you going back to the chirstie snooky shore
you can come back for vacation
but
id pow highway it
amazing skiing
and snow sheds

[Dantheman]

I’ve said it before and will say it again: Turn the gravel pit into a TOD with massive multi-level parking garage and run BRT up both Canyons. Bus volume would obviously be reduced in summertime, but busses up and down both canyons in summer to reduce congestion and TH parking issues is necessary as well. Could even run them up Mill Creek from there. Tolls/annual passes at both canyons if folks still want to drive up for camping and #vanlifing

I remember this idea now. It's pretty solid. For it to really work I think you'd have to close the canyons to private vehicles during peak times, but at least it solves the parking issue associated with any mass transit solution.

it takes 10 years to built a gondola? News to me...dont think thats at all true.

See Danno's response. Even if you started it today the EIS alone would take years.

a train is just way too much work..gondola is way less impact, even over tunnels IMHO. towers would be on the creek side...low....below road grade and could easily be colored to "blend" in.

LOL that a gondola would "blend in."

Whos footing the bill for all the cars that would be needed to move say 6000ppl a day up and down the canyon, and will sit idle mostly during the off season? You think the taxpayer? Snowbird/Alta?

Who's going to pay for a gondola and what is it going to do in the off season/off hours? Uber is envisioning having fleets of thousands of autonomous cars in every city. They've already contracted with Volvo to buy 24,000 autonomous XC90s, and that's just to start (http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-...o-suvs-2017-11). Between Uber, Lyft, and yet-to-be players in that market the valley could easily be home to many thousands of driverless taxis. Most of them would probably be sitting idle early in the morning on weekends and their algorithmic overlords would be happy to divert a couple thousand of them to shuttle ski traffic and make money instead. Per that article, the estimated consumer cost for shared autonomous is $0.17/mile vs. $0.57/mile for a personal vehicle.

Shit convert it to autonomous buses. How many people can a typical UTA bus carry up at once? 100? Probably less...so say you need 600 busses, of new technology (read this as fucking EXPENSIVE). Sounds awful spendy when you break it all down...

Math is hard. 6000/100 = 60

Buses can't provided door-to-door service. Cars can, which eliminates the down canyon parking issue present with buses, gondy, train, etc. An XC90 holds 7 people, so 900 of them to move the same 6,000 people. Which is a lot, except once they've dropped off the ski rush they go back down into the valley and take people shopping or whatever else it is normal people do on weekends.

Listen, I'm not disagreeing that there are HUGE obstacles to be overcome if the vision that Uber and most automakers have of massive driverless taxi fleets is going to come to fruition. But, they are pouring ungodly amounts of money into making it happen and if, IF, they pull it off there is serious potential for a solution there. A solution that happens to not involve NEPA or any public money, which is a big damn deal in this case.

[Skidog]

we
werents you going back to the chirstie snooky shore
you can come back for vacation
but
id pow highway it
amazing skiing
and snow sheds

It's likely in the cards but not in stone yet. I still live here and continue to use the canyons. I will use them even if I move back, as the plan is to not ski back east much and spend 3 weeks or more a year in Utah. And it's to NY, not back to NJ. NJ is way too spendy for me anymore.

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[Skidog]

I remember this idea now. It's pretty solid. For it to really work I think you'd have to close the canyons to private vehicles during peak times, but at least it solves the parking issue associated with any mass transit solution.



See Danno's response. Even if you started it today the EIS alone would take years.



LOL that a gondola would "blend in."



Who's going to pay for a gondola and what is it going to do in the off season/off hours? Uber is envisioning having fleets of thousands of autonomous cars in every city. They've already contracted with Volvo to buy 24,000 autonomous XC90s, and that's just to start (http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-...o-suvs-2017-11). Between Uber, Lyft, and yet-to-be players in that market the valley could easily be home to many thousands of driverless taxis. Most of them would probably be sitting idle early in the morning on weekends and their algorithmic overlords would be happy to divert a couple thousand of them to shuttle ski traffic and make money instead. Per that article, the estimated consumer cost for shared autonomous is $0.17/mile vs. $0.57/mile for a personal vehicle.



Math is hard. 6000/100 = 60

Buses can't provided door-to-door service. Cars can, which eliminates the down canyon parking issue present with buses, gondy, train, etc. An XC90 holds 7 people, so 900 of them to move the same 6,000 people. Which is a lot, except once they've dropped off the ski rush they go back down into the valley and take people shopping or whatever else it is normal people do on weekends.

Listen, I'm not disagreeing that there are HUGE obstacles to be overcome if the vision that Uber and most automakers have of massive driverless taxi fleets is going to come to fruition. But, they are pouring ungodly amounts of money into making it happen and if, IF, they pull it off there is serious potential for a solution there. A solution that happens to not involve NEPA or any public money, which is a big damn deal in this case.

I don't disagree that auto cars could do it. Still the avie issue without snowsheds. So there's that too.

While a gondola wouldn't be totally unobtrusive it would surely be less so than a train which requires much more substantial construction.

The gondi could surely be used in summer and fall for access to the bird/alta. Hell Oktoberfest would be great if you could get all drunked up and just jump a gondi down. The bird does get a decent amount of summer traffic. Sure not winter, but the gondi could still be useful. Leaf peepers, all that tourist shit.

Hey it's just an idea that I think is good. Like you said ANY solution is a lot of work. The Uber thing is good too, but has some logistical issues still as well.

Talking about it was more the point. Much like you are more behind your Uber idea, I like my gondi idea 😀 either could work. I for one wouldn't mind a gondi full of buddies and a 30-45 bake session on the way up. But that's just me

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[GPP33]

Banking on autonomous cars is stupid. They won’t make a shit of difference until EVERY car on the road is autonomous and they can collaborate with every other car to move as efficiently as possible, until then they have to be overly cautious in order to play on the road with unpredictable human operated vehicles. In fact I could see it getting worse before it gets better as they learn how to drive in complex situations such as snow covered mountain roads and chaotic parking lots. Autonomous cars aren’t going to solve our traffic problems in our life time.

I’d imagine Save our Canyons would love to see a gondola which could remove millions of polluting vehicle trips each year with a zero local emission option. What’s not to love about that? They should be the ones sponsoring this. Gondola installation can be done with near zero environmental impact and wind, trees, etc are delt with on every gondola in existence, they aren’t new challenges and are manageable.

Finally, your LDS govt ain’t gonna fix it, you sinners should be in church, not skiing. Powder is the Devil!

[Sirshredalot]

The other autonomous cab fleet problem is that fully snow packed roads with stormy weather confounds the sensors. A safe and reliable fix for that is maybe the most difficult hurdle to overcome for those vehicles right now.

[Skidog]

Banking on autonomous cars is stupid. They won’t make a shit of difference until EVERY car on the road is autonomous and they can collaborate with every other car to move as efficiently as possible, until then they have to be overly cautious in order to play on the road with unpredictable human operated vehicles. In fact I could see it getting worse before it gets better as they learn how to drive in complex situations such as snow covered mountain roads and chaotic parking lots. Autonomous cars aren’t going to solve our traffic problems in our life time.

I’d imagine Save our Canyons would love to see a gondola which could remove millions of polluting vehicle trips each year with a zero local emission option. What’s not to love about that? They should be the ones sponsoring this. Gondola installation can be done with near zero environmental impact and wind, trees, etc are delt with on every gondola in existence, they aren’t new challenges and are manageable.

Finally, your LDS govt ain’t gonna fix it, you sinners should be in church, not skiing. Powder is the Devil!

Glad someone sees it. Thanks.

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[BobMc]

I still live here and continue to use the canyons.

Did you encounter a lot of traffic on that one day so far this season? Complaining on Facebook from your home doesn't count!

[Dantheman]

It's not so much that I think we should bank on Uber, etc al. to solve this, but rather that I don't think anything more than some marginal improvements to bus service and a bullshit toll is likely to happen in the next ten years. In the meantime, the driverless car space race is going to forge on full speed ahead regardless. Ten years on, when the legislature maybe, possibly, starts to seriously consider a major infrastructure project in the canyon(s), they may already be moving large volumes of people.

[Skidog]

Did you encounter a lot of traffic on that one day so far this season? Complaining on Facebook from your home doesn't count!

I've sat in plenty of traffic and I think it's kinda bullshit that in order to not sit in traffic on a pow day that you have to take a risk and drive up the canyon hours before resort opening. Beating the closure is a shit solution and I wouldn't doubt it if we see them not allowing that much longer. There was fucking traffic before 6am on Sunday. Traffic to beat the closure...I'll bet they start making the closings at 12am so there is no beating it.

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[GPP33]

I've sat in plenty of traffic and I think it's kinda bullshit that in order to not sit in traffic on a pow day that you have to take a risk and drive up the canyon hours before resort opening. Beating the closure is a shit solution and I wouldn't doubt it if we see them not allowing that much longer. There was fucking traffic before 6am on Sunday. Traffic to beat the closure...I'll bet they start making the closings at 12am so there is no beating it.

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What’s so bad about beating the closure?

[alev]

I've sat in plenty of traffic and I think it's kinda bullshit that in order to not sit in traffic on a pow day that you have to take a risk and drive up the canyon hours before resort opening. Beating the closure is a shit solution and I wouldn't doubt it if we see them not allowing that much longer. There was fucking traffic before 6am on Sunday. Traffic to beat the closure...I'll bet they start making the closings at 12am so there is no beating it.

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That's the way it will go with more people vehicles going up the canyon. They need better queue space for cars to wait it out, rather than block major roads and highways. Improving the communication and likelihood of travel delays would also help in the short term.

[Skidog]

What’s so bad about beating the closure?

ummm the reason they are closing is because they need light (daylight) to do avie control. This means pre closure avie control hasnt happened. This means a slide, while not super likely, could cross the road and kill you. Could happen when its open too, but the chances are lower as control work has been done.

Its also pretty shitty to say hey i live 14 miles from wildcat lot..i should, in order to not sit in traffic, get up 3 hours prior to opening. Im dont live 100's of miles away...14 miles should never take multiple hours.

[claymond]

Something they could do immediately to at least help keep traffic flowing is require actual snow tires on all vehicles in the canyon every day from November thru April. Alta Marshall's sit around most of the day, drive thru lots and give expensive tickets for anyone who breaks this rule. So many people with 4wd and shitty m and s tires that are useless in snow. And two wheel drives still trying to go up without chains and snow on the road. They could check before the park and ride so a retarded driver in a Corolla doesn't hold up traffic getting turned around and doing a four point turn in snow

[Dantheman]

Could happen when its open too, but the chances are lower as control work has been done.

It's happened multiple times. IIRC some cars got hit by a slide just below White Pine a year or three back. There was video. A pre-control accident at O'dark thirty, especially if injuries were involved, would definitely put lives at risk. More 12:00am closures are probably going to happen.

They need better queue space for cars to wait it out, rather than block major roads and highways.

Definitely. For a while years ago they experimented with not letting people go south of the La Caille light on 210 or east of Wasatch on 209. It was a mess with hundreds of cars making laps through neighborhoods and they quietly dropped it. I don't think it lasted one season. Joetron's gravel pit parking garage would be a perfect staging area if it existed. In the meantime you could probably pick a few large parking lots that are mostly empty at that time like South Town Expo, South Town Mall, Parley's Way Walmart, etc. and make people wait there. UPD can for AWD/4WD and tire condition as people come in, and no one leaves until they say so. Maybe they could even register people somehow and have an automated station at the mouth that mails a hefty fine to anyone who wasn't checked in at a staging area prior to a certain time. IDK, just spitballing.

[Skidog]

It's happened multiple times. IIRC some cars got hit by a slide just below White Pine a year or three back. There was video. A pre-control accident at O'dark thirty, especially if injuries were involved, would definitely put lives at risk. More 12:00am closures are probably going to happen.

Oh im aware it has..I think there was one even last season. Thats why i think the "option" sucks. Like i said, and you agree. I see many more midnight closures as a result. I couldnt believe it when my buddy sent me a pic of a red snake going UP the canyon at 545am on Sunday.