Light, box-baffled down ski jacket

[auvgeek]

I've been running a semi-VB for touring (thanks Steve) for a few seasons now. It works so much better than the other layering systems I've tried, but I'm finding less and less use for my shell in the backcountry (outside of the PNW). I often get cold skiing down with just a shell over my semi-VB, so in the past I've brought a midlayer (Rab Xenon X) to wear over my semi-VB and under my shell. I'd prefer to have an insulated jacket for the ski down instead of the midlayer + shell combo to save weight, volume, and time at transitions. Basically, I'd like my layering system to be: semi-VB next to skin, an insulated, durable jacket (in pack, worn skiing down), and Montbell Mirage down puffy (in pack, for extended transitions/lunch/sitting around waiting for the snow to warm up in spring).

I recently bought a Norrona powershield alpha pro jacket because it has a freeride fit and durable face fabric with insulation. But after getting it and trying it on, I'm realizing there's a large emphasis placed on breathability over warmth. Since I'll be run a semi-VB under it, breathability doesn't matter much to me. So I'd prefer something similar with more warmth for the weight at the expense of breathability. Aka baffled down. So what jacket has:

- down with box-baffle construction (not sewn through)
- durable, wind-resistant face fabric, preferably soft shell
- freeride fit
- 17-21 oz (500-600 g)

That only one I can find so far is the Dynafit Cho Oyo jacket, which is by accounts is a pretty Euro fit. And durability of the face fabric is still a question. What else is out there?

PS. The Norrona jacket I linked above is pretty awesome for anyone not using a VB under it.

[zeroforhire]

Cho oyu is awesome. Not the most durable though.

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[auvgeek]

I tried on a couple Cho Oyu's in the store and thought it was a very conventional fit, iow I'm normally a mens medium and the mens large I tried on was noticeably too big for me. I find that to be the case with all of Dynafit's clothes, they fit true to US size (I have a number of various garments of theirs). Just fwiw

What's your height/weight/build? I'm 5'11", 165#, athletic build but like my jackets a bit baggy. Current shell is an XL Mountain Equipment Lhotse.

Any thoughts other than the Cho Oyu?

[auvgeek]

Thanks for the beta. Maybe I'll order a large on Amazon to see how it fits. The ME jacket is a mountaineering fit -- the XL is still a bit cartoonishly large on me for touring; it was sized for going over the armor I wear inbounds. The L in the Norrona jacket I mentioned above fits well. M is too snug in the shoulders.

Still looking for other ideas, preferably with a durable softshell face fabric.

[LightRanger]

Auvgeek, I'm 6'0.5" and 165. I'll take a photo of the medium Cho Oyo fit later this evening and post it so you can see.

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[jacob_dbu]

What about the Patagonia Nano Storm? I don't know how small it packs, but it's within the weight range you suggested.

Also, what about the OR Floodlight? Pretty hefty face fabric on that, but it's a little heavier and probably warmer than what you're looking for.

[bodywhomper]

face fabric (softshell - are you looking for stretched woven?), will affect weight. if you're splitting the hairs, you might want to consider the weight of the fill, which is sometimes listed by the manufacturers on their website.

[auvgeek]

face fabric (softshell - are you looking for stretched woven?), will affect weight. if you're splitting the hairs, you might want to consider the weight of the fill, which is sometimes listed by the manufacturers on their website.

Yes, of course the face fabric will affect weight. Windproof and durability are most important to me.

For fill, I would prefer 800 fill, around 3 oz. Preferably without a ton of loft height -- not looking for a "puffy." I mainly want the Norrona jacket I mentioned above but with box baffle down instead of alpha insulation. Just checking here to see if that exists that I hadn't seen.

[bodywhomper]

hood, too?

[steveski]

Doesn't fit all your criteria but the OR uberlayer jacket had been surprisingly versatile for me this year. Wind resistant, breathes, and decent at insulating. The fit is a little strange in the shoulders but otherwise it's a great touring piece.

[auvgeek]

hood, too?

Yes, absolutely.

[auvgeek]

Auvgeek, I'm 6'0.5" and 165. I'll take a photo of the medium Cho Oyo fit later this evening and post it so you can see.

That's awfully nice of you. Would love to get your thoughts on whether you think the face fabric would hold up to skiing trees.

Thank you all for helping me figure this out. I want to reiterate that the Norrona is a pretty awesome jacket, which I'll probably keep if I can't find anything I like better. But I realized after trying it on that I'd prefer something with a higher warmth/weight ratio. I also realize I'm in a vast minority who wants a lwt, insulated ski jacket with no regard for breathability.

[bodywhomper]

Im sure you've seen that most baffled jackets seem to be heavier/warmer.

[auvgeek]

Im sure you've seen that most baffled jackets seem to be heavier/warmer.

Yes of course. Which is why I started this thread -- to see if I'm missing anything before I decide to keep the Norrona. The Montbell Mirage, Dynafit Cho Oyo, and a few others are <20 oz and baffled, so I figured there's a shot. But the Dynafit is the closest I've seen to something I could ski in.

The OR Floodlight might be a good option -- little heavier with a thinner (30D) face fabric than I wanted, but I'll try to find somewhere to check it out locally since it seems pretty close.

[Dromond]

Thread drift: what’s the deal with the semi-VB? What exactly do you wear? Feel free to point me to another thread if there is one.

[auvgeek]

Big/DIY/Old Steve has written a bunch and more eloquently than me about semi-VBs but I'm too lazy to search for it. He turned me onto them 4-5 seasons ago, and I really like them for everything under about 30-35F, when I get too hot and have to put on a short-sleeve merino tee. Here's some stuff I wrote in a recent thread.

Old Steve (the VB guru -- you can search for his many detailed posts on this topic) recommended the Mountain Hardware Effusion Hoody for 10F-40F and the Transition Hoody for lower temps. I bought both and he hit the nail on the head (IMO), but both are now discontinued*. I'm not sure what to recommend since I haven't personally tried the new stuff, but my guess is the Mountain Hardware Quasar Lite II would do pretty well but it may breathe too well to really act as a semi-VB.

The semi-VB is worn next to skin (i.e., no merino layer**) and temp regulation is done via venting the front zipper and adding/removing the hood. I can't reiterate how much better and simpler this system is than baselayer + R1 + synthetic midlayer. Don't knock it till you've tried both ways. ISBD's baselayer + windbreaker system seems like a very similar approach but in two layers rather than one.


*eBay has the Effusion Hoody in L & XL: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mens-Mounta...rd!21218!US!-1
**I sometimes carry a lwt merino tee in the pack if it looks like the sun might come out and warm things up substantially.

a VB or semi-VB isn't at all like a typical baselayer. Totally different concept. For those interested, one of the better explanations I've read is here: https://www.warmlite.com/vapor-barrier/

For me (and probably most people), a true VB is just too hot while skinning or climbing in temps higher than 0-10F, especially when worn with with a thin baselayer tee for comfort (true plastic just doesn't feel very nice against the skin). The semi-VB is something I hadn't heard of before Big/DIY/Old Steve posted about it here, and it really works well. The Mountain Hardware jackets I listed are very comfortable next to skin, hold enough moisture to stop evaporative cooling losses, and breathe just enough to wear at 30F, though the user will still need to vent via the front zipper and hood to avoid overheating, especially at higher intensity activity. VBs are especially convenient for skinning when it's very windy or precipitating. Obviously, when it's warm and/or sunny with minimal wind, I switch to a short sleeve merino tee.

[LightRanger]

So here's the chest fit and a photo of the denier. I'm a 38 regular. I feel like I could for my usual thin merino+R1, no problem. Much more than that... meh. Maybe.

As for the toughness of the face, hard to say. It's definitely higher denier than my MH Nitrous Jacket and my old Patagonia Down Sweater and similar stuff. Higher than your Montbell for sure. It's in between there and my 15+ year-old MH heavy down jacket (think TNF Nuptse style). I'd ski trees in it, but very cautiously. Make sense? I don't think there's an easy answer on that.

I do have to say that, man, every time I put it on it reminds me how much warmer baffled construction is over sewn-threw. Crazy noticeable.

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[auvgeek]

Sweet, thank you! And that's a medium not a large?

[bodywhomper]

So here's the chest fit and a photo of the denier. I'm a 38 regular. I feel like I could for my usual thin merino+R1, no problem. Much more than that... meh. Maybe.

As for the toughness of the face, hard to say. It's definitely higher denier than my MH Nitrous Jacket and my old Patagonia Down Sweater and similar stuff. Higher than your Montbell for sure. It's in between there and my 15+ year-old MH heavy down jacket (think TNF Nuptse style).

nice quiver!

interestingly, i was thinking of an ibex (or smartwool?) jacket that i remembered being heavy wool "fill" with a stretchwoven face fabric. i went to the ibex site to see if such a thing existed or if i'd been eating too moldy bread again, and ibex is out of business. damn. i know they were bought by the same company that owns smartwool....

[CaliBrit]

I use Patagonia Fitz Roy, but I run cold.

Baffled, good pertex outer. Packs small for warmth.

[LightRanger]

Yep, medium. I suspect that if you just had your semi-VB on underneath it would fit fine. You just couldn't layer anything thick. In fact, I'll throw my BD Dawn Patrol Hoody on underneath it and let you know what it's like.

G, Ibex has had quite a number of itssues in the last few years. They went direct-to-consumer--and apparently left a bunch of retailers in the lurch, to my recollection. And then they shuttered. Bummer.

Keep poking around though. I seem to recall one of those woolfill softshells from somebody else.

By the way, for wool stuff generally, check out Ridge Merino out of Mammoth Lakes. Direct-to-consumer sales. Reasonable prices compared to Icebreaker and the like. I just bought a pair of their 3/4 length bottoms. Quality is great. A little looser than I'm used to and wish they were slightly tighter, but good other than that. I'll probably get more of their stuff in future.

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[auvgeek]

Yep, medium. I suspect that if you just had your semi-VB on underneath it would fit fine. You just couldn't layer anything thick. In fact, I'll throw my BD Dawn Patrol Hoody on underneath it and let you know what it's like.

Thank you, but no need to go to the trouble -- it would just be my semi-VB under it. I'll probably order the L on amazon with free returns and see how it fits.

[Dromond]

Big/DIY/Old Steve has written a bunch and more eloquently than me about semi-VBs but I'm too lazy to search for it. He turned me onto them 4-5 seasons ago, and I really like them for everything under about 30-35F, when I get too hot and have to put on a short-sleeve merino tee. Here's some stuff I wrote in a recent thread.

Interesting. I'm not sure if I completely get it. My best solution so far for skinning in cool/damp conditions like 28 degree snowfall with intermittent wind is to wear a thin merino top with a Patagonia Houdini over that. I don't know if it's similar at all, but somehow it keeps me just barely warm enough without getting too warm. I generally put insulation/shells on top of that as needed for going downhill, or if i'm climbing in very cold (below 10F or so) weather.

[auvgeek]

Interesting. I'm not sure if I completely get it. My best solution so far for skinning in cool/damp conditions like 28 degree snowfall with intermittent wind is to wear a thin merino top with a Patagonia Houdini over that. I don't know if it's similar at all, but somehow it keeps me just barely warm enough without getting too warm. I generally put insulation/shells on top of that as needed for going downhill, or if i'm climbing in very cold (below 10F or so) weather.

The idea is basically that wicking baselayers transfer moisture away from your skin so you don't know when you're overheating. As a practical matter, a plastic bag or a shell next to skin isn't very comfortable. A semi-VB worn next to skin is the best compromise: comfortable enough to wear next to skin while still maintaining a microclimate next to skin that's humid enough to stop evaporative heat loss and the so-called "insensible sweat." I bet your Houdini without the thin merino top would be better, but it might breathe too well to maintain near-100% relative humidity next to your skin.

The warmlite article linked above goes into a fair amount of detail.

[GeezerSteve]

I don't know if it's similar at all

Nope, not a bit similar. Wool is a saturation/heat sink medium (fine if you don't sweat), the opposite of next-to-skin semi-VB. I've started or contributed to several threads about it.

I bet your Houdini without the thin merino top would be better, but it might breathe too well to maintain near-100% relative humidity next to your skin.

I've tried it as part of my never-ending experimentation with semi-VBs. It works as a semi-VB in a pinch, surely better than having a saturation layer underneath. There are better options.