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02-28-2018, 09:53 PM #1
Where the fuck are we with < 1,200 gram touring boots?
Trying to keep up with all the new boots in the "lightweight" category but am having trouble understanding how they all compare with regards to flex and general skiability. Specifically thinking of Fischer Travers, Scarpa Alien, Atomic Backland, Dynafit TLT6/7, I'll throw the x-alp in the mix just because, and any others that might fit. Is there much difference in how they go down hill? All ski like shit? I'm looking for something to take my fat ass up hill with minimum effort and not shit the bed on the way down. Who can contrast and compare from first hand experience. I've never used any of the above boots but have owned first generation Spectre's so wondering if any are similar in terms of not just stiffness but also progressive flex and lateral rigidity and ability to drive big skis in softer, consistent condtions. FWIW I'm in the 200lb+ club and while I could ski Lahas 191's just fine in good conditions with the Spectre's I could/would blow through the front of the boots in shitty, inconsistent snow. Not cool. I've got a pair of Ultra XTD 130's coming in a couple of weeks but am interested in something even lighter to heave my BMT 122's up and down the mountains while we still have snow.
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02-28-2018, 10:00 PM #2
I've had lots of days on TLT5 and TLT6 and they've worked very well for me with a variety of skis. Light weight is great, although IMO the ROM and ability to walk, scramble, boot and crampon like a mountaineering boot is even better. I dunno about the other models.
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02-28-2018, 10:34 PM #3
I've been skiing TLT6 Mtns on 182cm Hokkaidos with the new Vipec. Boot doesn't seem to have any problems driving the ski in soft snow as long as I stay balanced (doesn't seem to like getting in the back seat, which is probably a good thing because it forces me to improve my technique). I don't drive my tips too hard compared to some, but I weigh 200 fully loaded with my pack and seem to get a pretty decent progressive forward flex, as long as I use the tongues.
I take the tongues out for the uphill, once you figure out the trick to putting them in and taking them out without unbuckling the boot it only adds like 20 seconds per boot to your transition.
Outdoor Gear Lab has a pretty extensive review that touches on most of the boots you listed.
https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/topic...field=#compare
Seems like a good review as far as I can tell, they buy the boots so no worries about biased reviews trying to placate sponsors, and I trust Jed Porter when it comes to gear.
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03-01-2018, 06:44 AM #4Registered User
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“Lightweight” boots don’t provide the support or dampening of heavier boots, but if the conditions are consistent enough, and/or your balance/fitness/technique are sufficient, the ease of touring can be worth it. It’s easy to blow through the flex of these boots, just don’t do it. First generation Spectres are more boot than the models you list, but are closer to the lightweights than they are to “real” alpine boots. I also find that the lighter the boot, the more sensitive I am to fit. Ultimately there are too many variables in boots, skiers, and conditions to be definitive, so you’ll just have to buy em and try em.
Blogging at www.kootenayskier.wordpress.com
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03-01-2018, 06:55 AM #5
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03-01-2018, 07:36 AM #6
I skied the TLT5P and 6P since their inception until this year. Both versions of the TLT6P. Toured without the tongues but always used the tongues for skiing. I'm around 190 pounds without gear so felt I needed the added support of the tongue. I was satisfied with the way they skied, and skied some of the biggest lines of my life on these boots. I don't get too crazy in the backcountry, but do like to let it rip when the conditions warrant and also enjoy steep terrain. But bear in mind I'm almost a purely BC skier, these are the only boots I've owned for the past 7-8 seasons. I'm sure these boots aren't progressive but I guess that's all I know and it works for me. While I'm sure I've become use to a fairly balanced stance, I find that I can lean into these boots fairly aggressively and they don't fold.
If you've been touring awhile, the interesting thing is that these boots are actually stiffer than the old generation of boots many of us use to use: Garmont Mega Rides, Scarpa Spirits 3/4, etc. I went from a Dynafit Titan to a TLT5P; I don't remember feeling like I lost much ski performance but obviously the touring ability was, as they say, game changing. I haven't skied the La Sportiva Spectre but I'm pretty sure I've heard they're softer than a TLT6P with a tongue...? The Spectre has always seemed like a dated design to me.
This season I tried the Salomon X-Alp for the first part of the season. Wanted to love it as it fit my foot very well and the touring mode is incredible. Less front/back resistance than the TLT6 (due to lack of any sort of tongue) and the side/side movement was noticeable and very ergonomic on sidehills. But I found that it just wasn't quite stiff enough while skiing for me (again I'm 190 pounds), especially as my only boot. Definitely not as much boot as a TLT6P with tongue. There was also a bit of slop in the walk mechanism that had me worried - all 3 pairs of my TLTs got sloppy and I was pretty over it.
I ended up settling on an Atomic Backland Carbon for this season and have been super pleased overall. You can find last years on sale now for <$400 which is the same as this years except for a slightly different liner (that you'll probably replace anyways). It tours significantly better than the TLT6 (again, due to no tongue at all) and skis similarly with the tongue in. The walk mode and cuff rivets are absolutely solid. Like many I use a Pro Tour liner I had been using in my TLT6s. The tongue is more fidgety to get in than the TLTs, but I ground down the tab on the shell and that helps a bit. I also switched out the power strap for the cam lock one from my TLT6s. I wish the shell height was 1cm taller, but I think this is largely psychological, especially with the stiffer intuition liners.
Guess I might be one of the hold outs that actually prefers the removable tongue concept. The lack of tongue on the X Alp was immediately noticeable to me and I felt like my foot was only being held at the buckle points rather than having a tongue to distribute the pressure across the front of my foot and ankle. To me, the fidget factor is worth it to have both better touring and ski performance. But I realize I might be in the minority and some people will spend hours on Tech Talk talking about boot performance but can't spare an extra 30 seconds at a transition to actually get better boot performance.
That all being said, I have friends that are using both the Salomon X Alp and Fischer Travers this year and they are all satisfied. Several of them came from TLT6Ps or Atomic Backland Carbons and agree that these boots don't perform as well, but are close enough for them and they appreciate the added touring efficiency and not dealing with the tongue. Keep in mind they are all very good, technically proficient skiers - as well as lighter than me.
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03-01-2018, 09:04 AM #7
You are not alone. Yes, it’s more fiddly, but it’s worth it to me for the versatility. You can add or subtract ~25% stiffness for minimal weight (I’ve toured 100% in either Vulcans or TLT5Ps for 5+ years). An xalp design with a removable tongue is my dream boot. Next year’s ArcT procline with a tongue might be close enough if it’s truly a 110 flex.
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03-01-2018, 09:30 AM #8
"Guess I might be one of the hold outs that actually prefers the removable tongue concept. The lack of tongue on the X Alp was immediately noticeable to me and I felt like my foot was only being held at the buckle points rather than having a tongue to distribute the pressure across the front of my foot and ankle. To me, the fidget factor is worth it to have both better touring and ski performance. But I realize I might be in the minority and some people will spend hours on Tech Talk talking about boot performance but can't spare an extra 30 seconds at a transition to actually get better boot performance. "
teeheehee....yeah but tech talk is hours of lounging on the coach, warm hands and fingers and in an ergonomically correct supportive position. Fiddling with tongues in wind driven snow, bare fingers exposed 'cause you had to take a glove off cause you blew one of the strategic moves with the tongues or buckles, hunched over in back spasm triggering position is the ultimate in 'this effing sux'. imo.
My kingdom for a boot where you can just push yer pole down to a 'push/push' lever to switch to ski AND walk mode...or push a button with pole so an electronically controlled servo design does all the buckling AND micro adjusting for me.
Glad i never needed the tongue for my mercuries in the past and definitely no need with my present mean green vulcans.
Dunno what happened after turning 40 but these days I bend over to buckle my boots and almost need the buddy system to assist in getting vertical again. Aging ain't for wimps!Master of mediocrity.
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03-02-2018, 10:07 AM #9
[QUOTE=gavinski91;5273721]
I take the tongues out for the uphill, once you figure out the trick to putting them in and taking them out without unbuckling the boot it only adds like 20 seconds per boot to your transition.
On this trick, is it grinding off the nub, or going over the lower buckle with the tongue, or some other method?
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03-02-2018, 10:13 AM #10
So bottom line for now at least.... I should just be content with XTD 130's and worry about losing some ass fat to make up the difference. The boots aren't quite there yet for guys my size
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03-02-2018, 10:16 AM #11Dad core
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Another 200lb club member here. I switched from tele to spectres to XTD130s. I haven't skied any of the super light boots, and don't see a need to for my touring. The atomics skin as well as the spectres but are not quite as good walking around but I don't do much scrambling in my boots. I also found the spectres fine in good snow but unable to deal with variable. I like to know I can bring my big skis and ski how I want no matter what snow I find and I am willing to drag a little more uphill for that.
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03-02-2018, 11:19 AM #12Registered User
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It seems like people buy them really light boots and then they fiddle with them to make them stiffer but they are really trying to make chicken salad out of chicken poo. Imo
Better to go stiff and manly
Much easier to make chicken poo out of the chicken salad laterLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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03-02-2018, 11:44 AM #13
carlh and XXr
Yeah, at this point I'm pretty much with you guys. Had the same experience with Spectres in variable. I suppose the heavy/stiff boot thing is a burden us full figured guys will just have to bear. Will try the feather wieght shoes with my wife.
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03-02-2018, 12:02 PM #14Registered User
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I want to like them spectres cuz I dig the colors even tho it ain't red but I heard they fold like a cheap tent
OTOH Vulcan is sub 1400 with a pw and it fits perfect right out of the box ... Live long and prosper eh?Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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03-03-2018, 11:09 AM #15
I couldn't remember exactly how I did it, so I made a quick video. You want to slide the tongue beside the nubbin on the inside of the boot (so that it doesn't get caught on the lower buckle) and then use your thumb to push it over the nubbin before sliding it the rest of the way into the slot on the tongue. Depending on how you size your boots this could be more or less difficult for you.
To pull the tongue out, just lean back and pull up on the top of the tongue with both hands until it is out of the nubbin, and then lean forward to pull it the rest of the way out. You don't need to undo any buckles to put the tongue in or take it out.Last edited by gavinski91; 03-03-2018 at 01:16 PM. Reason: correction
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03-03-2018, 11:19 AM #16
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03-03-2018, 02:34 PM #17
Thanks for posting the video! On my TLT 5’s the lower buckle is a bit more snug even in it’s loosest position, but I’ll see if I can make it work.
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03-04-2018, 12:50 AM #18
Maestrale rs are 1300g and far better for skiing while having nearly the same stride as models posted above.
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03-05-2018, 12:15 AM #19
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03-05-2018, 08:49 AM #20
No. RS is a nice boot but ROM of TLT5/6 w/ tongues is far greater, not even close, surely not "nearly." TLT5/6 w/o tongues walks and scrambles like a light mountaineering boot, completely different class than RS. I like my RS for a handful of straight up and down mid-winter tours each season, although they get used mostly for lift-served. Longer ROM is nice for lower angle ascents, although IME ROM difference is most relevant on spring/summer tours with any hiking, scrambling, booting or cramponing.
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03-05-2018, 08:51 AM #21
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03-05-2018, 08:59 AM #22
Sure, and to what degree depends somewhat on ski style. RS and TLT6M are all I ski. AFAICT, lateral rigidity is the same, so it boils down to fore-aft centerness of skiing style. IME my RS skis a bit, maybe 10%, better than my TLT6M with tongues. The latter tours 50% better. YMMV
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03-05-2018, 02:48 PM #23
I have RS 1.0 and have never toured in a proper lightweight boot like those described here. Aside from the weight savings, what makes the stride so much better, is it straight ROM or friction (or both)? When I undo the power strap, take the top buckle completely off the bail, undo + loosen the instep and toes buckles (but leave them on bails) I have a pretty wide useful ROM at the obvious expense of longer transitions. If I am doing any scrambling around on rock I need to tighten them up for more control.
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03-05-2018, 02:57 PM #24
Both, mostly ROM, especially with TLT5/6 tongue removed. Also, TLT 5/6/7 has significantly smaller profile in all dimensions, an advantage when walking and scrambling. In more vague terms, RS is considerably more clunky, walks and scrambles like a ski touring boot with a bit more ROM than older designs. TLT5/6/7 walk and scramble nearly like mountaineering boots.
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03-05-2018, 03:16 PM #25Registered User
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Man, are you guys talking about the Maestrale RS 1, Maestrale RS2, or the Alien RS? Sounds like the OG Maestrale RS, but some clarification would help.
The Maestrale RS 1 and TLT5P aren't even the same class in skiing performance. The TLT5P walked great, but was almost unskiable for me with the stupid metatarsal flex. 1*, would not ski again. YMMV"Alpine rock and steep, deep powder are what I seek, and I will always find solace there." - Bean Bowers
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