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  1. #1
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    BC guides in BC sued over fatal avalanche

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...suit-1.4543585

    That waiver you signed when buddy the guide asked if you understood it ... does it stand up in court ??

    I have requested an opinion from legal

    this should be interesting eh?
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  2. #2
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...suit-1.4543585

    That waiver you signed when buddy the guide asked if you understood it ... does it stand up in court ??

    I have requested an opinion from legal

    this should be interesting eh?
    1) The waiver should hold up in court
    2) This is not interesting especially in canuck-ville. the litigious pricks are in the USA. I didn't think ya'lld even let this stuff go to court?
    3) Lawsuits are usually about who has the deeper pockets. The guides I've met in Canada, while they have a sustaining life, I would not consider them in the deep-pocket crowd (even the ones w/ more than one hut), let alone the ones you pick up in a bar or from word-of-mouth. CMH, et. al., sure, maybe they've settled out-of-court a few times?
    4) Heh, my neighbor's a guide. I tell him I don't need a guide to kill myself :-)

  3. #3
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    It will be interesting to see how things play out. If they can show the guide was negligent and acted against best practices... maybe? Gonna be hard to prove.

    thankfully, CDN courts seem to less likely to support this type of litigation. I am a firm believe that litigation is killing the action sports industry. .. I have had the unpleasant experience of watching unnecessary litigation between a widow and an individual who was a friend of the deceased... thankfully, no wrongdoing was found. Still created a significant distress amongst the community.
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ermine View Post
    1) The waiver should hold up in court
    2) This is not interesting especially in canuck-ville. the litigious pricks are in the USA. I didn't think ya'lld even let this stuff go to court?
    not interesting? If it set a new precedent that would look interesting to me
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  5. #5
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    9 out 10 people buried... I don't know. on face value that is some poor group management, easy enough to armchair i guess, but if everyone is in the slid path it easy to assume someone fucked up.

    .
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  6. #6
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    Doesn;t matter if there was negligence. Waiver's/Releases defeat negligence. Litigants can eat a BAG OF DICKS

    More on waivers/releases and negligence http://www.leelau.net/sharonandlee/c...b-c-bikeparks/

    Skiing references in there.

  7. #7
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    around the same time as that case, wasnt there was a case of mountain biker in ontario, who was successful? .. and did any of the skiing cases involve guides?

    Its a total bumber for the individual's name in in the suit, regardless of how it plays. I hope they have insurance to protect themselves, even assuming they are not held responsible they will likely bear fiscal the burden of legal representation.
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    around the same time as that case, wasnt there was a case of mountain biker in ontario, who was successful? .. and did any of the skiing cases involve guides?

    Its a total bumber for the individual's name in in the suit, regardless of how it plays. I hope they have insurance to protect themselves, even assuming they are not held responsible they will likely bear fiscal the burden of legal representation.
    Yup _ i discuss the Ontario case in the link above

    EDIT _ whoops. Different article. I'm working on that case comment. Ontario case is Rural Municipality of Bruce and is an outlier

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Doesn;t matter if there was negligence. Waiver's/Releases defeat negligence. Litigants can eat a BAG OF DICKS

    More on waivers/releases and negligence http://www.leelau.net/sharonandlee/c...b-c-bikeparks/

    Skiing references in there.
    Waivers enable an operator to transfer responsibility for inherent risk to an informed individual, but they are not a blanket indemnification for gross negligence. The boundary between inherent risk and gross negligence as it applies to guided backcountry skiing will be the subject of this dispute. I’d be surprised if the guide’s conduct fell outside the scope of the comprehensive BLBC waiver, but I wasn’t there. I’ll be watching with interest.

  10. #10
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    Hard to imagine that a bike park or ski hill waiver is the same as when you are guided.

    at the hill, you are essentially self guiding. You get to make all the decisions and manage the risk. In the context of a professional guide, you are hiring that person to make the decisions for you. Professionals who are negligent are liable, regardless of how well informed of the risk the victims were. No?
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  11. #11
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    This is a tough one.

    On one hand, yes there was a major FUBAR in getting a whole party swept and buried.

    On the other, snow and avalanche assessment are about as difficult as it gets.

    I am not a fan of lawsuits but in this case the group management does sound a bit negligent. Unless the group disregarded what the guides instructed.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kootenayskier View Post
    Waivers enable an operator to transfer responsibility for inherent risk to an informed individual, but they are not a blanket indemnification for gross negligence. The boundary between inherent risk and gross negligence as it applies to guided backcountry skiing will be the subject of this dispute. I’d be surprised if the guide’s conduct fell outside the scope of the comprehensive BLBC waiver, but I wasn’t there. I’ll be watching with interest.
    Much to my surprise BCcourts have dismissed a case ruling that waiver excused even gross negligence. It was a Blackcomb case involving an instructor. I'll dig it up

    S here it is.

    https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcsc/do...ocompletePos=1
    Last edited by LeeLau; 02-21-2018 at 10:13 AM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    Professionals who are negligent are liable, regardless of how well informed of the risk the victims were. No?
    Not in BC. A properly executed waiver is insanely powerful

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    9 out 10 people buried... I don't know. on face value that is some poor group management, easy enough to armchair i guess, but if everyone is in the slid path it easy to assume someone fucked up.

    .
    I think Rudi buried at least that many so it happens but the crux of this case is not about negligence ...

    its about the waiver
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  15. #15
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    wasn't there at least one lawsuit from the big SME avalanche?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    wasn't there at least one lawsuit from the big SME avalanche?
    Just Frank Baumann's expert report. But none filed iirc

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Not in BC. A properly executed waiver is insanely powerful
    If a dentist fucks up ur face- liable

    If a realestate agent fucks your transaction - liable

    If a surgeon leaves a sponge inside you - liable.

    If a professional guide fucks up their risk assessment / terrain choice - not liable.

    Help me rationalize this.
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    If a dentist fucks up ur face- liable

    If a realestate agent fucks your transaction - liable

    If a surgeon leaves a sponge inside you - liable.

    If a professional guide fucks up their risk assessment / terrain choice - not liable.

    Help me rationalize this.
    There is no rationale. It's the law. Law does not equal rationale. In BC, its weighted heavily against those who voluntarily assume risks when participating in inherently risky sports.

  19. #19
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    Anyone have any links to a case study or a technical analysis of the actual avalanche incident?
    Master of mediocrity.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Doesn;t matter if there was negligence. Waiver's/Releases defeat negligence. Litigants can eat a BAG OF DICKS

    More on waivers/releases and negligence http://www.leelau.net/sharonandlee/c...b-c-bikeparks/

    Skiing references in there.
    Whew, long article there LL. Found the Canadian guide page (@ bottom): http://www.acmg.ca/03public/guides/hireguide.asp
    (& assuming the international guides have liability coverage as well)

    "If you are taking a course or being guided by an ACMG member, you will be requested to complete a liability waiver. This is a requirement set out by our insurance underwriter as well as by the land managers we deal with."

    So, I guess the deep pockets would be the insurance company and you can bet they have a host of "enforced" liability waiver cases they'll present in court. Granted, sucks all the way around (all involved). Hopefully it's not interesting in that the liability waiver is not overturned (if in the USA, who TF knows how it would go?, they like us skiing parallel to each other, within ropes, riding chairs, eating at the café...). As discussed in other sites/threads, I hope everyone knows their life insurance policy probably will not pay out when bc skiing (unless you take out a special policy). All about $$$ & keeping us lined up in 2 x 2 formation.

    Take home for me on this (as usual in avie terrain) is to spread out, GTF out of the way at the bottom, one-at-a-time (sigh) --use terrain features? The safety in numbers ingrained into us mammals isn't so great when touring.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissiphic View Post
    Anyone have any links to a case study or a technical analysis of the actual avalanche incident?
    Avalanche Canada has full report in their accident database.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Avalanche Canada has full report in their accident database.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Thanks. Gave it a read. It's a brief summary. Looking for more in depth analysis.

    http://old.avalanche.ca/cac/library/...-database/view
    Master of mediocrity.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by swissiphic View Post
    Thanks. Gave it a read. It's a brief summary. Looking for more in depth analysis.

    http://old.avalanche.ca/cac/library/...-database/view
    No coroners report fyi. Heres the barebones AvCan report for interested parties




    Here is the media contact if you want further info

    https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2016JAG0007-000322

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    There is no rationale. It's the law. Law does not equal rationale. In BC, its weighted heavily against those who voluntarily assume risks when participating in inherently risky sports.
    I agree. However the case of a professional hired specifically to manage risk is different than the risk you assume when managing your self.

    Cases that don't speak to the negligence of an individual, but rather focus on the liability of an organization are not particularly relevant here. Organizational liability and the waiver has been well established.

    The ski instructor that was found liable may be a more direct comparison here.
    "Its not the arrow, its the Indian" - M.Pinto

  25. #25
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    This could get interesting in our small community. I've heard about alot this incident as i know the deceased and some others. Curious is the case filed in bc or ab? Would that make a difference Lee?

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