Blindsided by AT boot marketing BS

**skibrd** · 02-19-2018, 09:04 PM

The whole lighter is better trend is all marketing hype. Can you carve a Fischer Ranger 108 with XT Freetour130, yes, but will it be anywhere near as fun as carving in a plug boot and Kastle MX 98s? No, one (aka me!) could argue that carving on the light gear is downright terrifying!!!

It's all about the right tool for the job. You shouldn't get a sledge hammer out to put a finishing nail in, you could but you fingers might hate you. Just like a plug boot and frams bindings work for going on long hikes to ski pow, but your legs and back will hate you. I'm just happy to have the choice between a plug boot and the Freetour.

Dunfee, you shred in any equipment, any time, anywhere. I can attest to that. Tell that dude to fuck off.

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**rod9301** · 02-19-2018, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by skibrd

The whole lighter is better trend is all marketing hype. Can you carve a Fischer Ranger 108 with XT Freetour130, yes, but will it be anywhere near as fun as carving in a plug boot and Kastle MX 98s? No, one (aka me!) could argue that carving on the light gear is downright terrifying!!!

It's all about the right tool for the job. You shouldn't get a sledge hammer out to put a finishing nail in, you could but you fingers might hate you. Just like a plug boot and frams bindings work for going on long hikes to ski pow, but your legs and back will hate you. I'm just happy to have the choice between a plug boot and the Freetour.

Dunfee, you shred in any equipment, any time, anywhere. I can attest to that. Tell that dude to fuck off.

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It's not necessarily the light skis, is how well they are designed.
I do the volkl vwerks katanas and the carve really well, as a matter of fact, very damp, and hold a better edge on ice than the metal ones.

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**skibrd** · 02-19-2018, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by rod9301

It's not necessarily the light skis, is how well they are designed.
I do the volkl vwerks katanas and the carve really well, as a matter of fact, very damp, and hold a better edge on ice than the metal ones.

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Interest you say that cause I've been looking at those and the Kore 105 for a touring/side country ski. I love my Pro Riders, but they do weight a ton. I need to find a pair of VWerks Katanas to take for a spin.

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**cmcrawfo** · 02-19-2018, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by muted

We are talking about two different things my man, let's not cunt up this thread anymore, eh?

I think we have resolved the original question ....

I vote that the cunty thread drift should continue.

Cuz, I dont really get what you two are are arguing about .... what? Spancers don't make their athletes ride specific equipment at times? Spancers don't pay the bills (at times)? I am just a wanna be dentist, so I really want to be schooled on how it works.

**thecazdog** · 02-19-2018, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

I think those of us who are tall/fat need more burly boots to achieve the same ski performance.

I think this is the best summary of tech talk I've seen yet.

**lordf** · 02-20-2018, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by thecazdog

I think this is the best summary of tech talk I've seen yet.

My problem with most gear, its why I ski in plug boots most of the time. Am I a good skier? Probably not compared to most on here but I'm also 6'4 and weigh 200lbs without gear on and its not fat...

I tend to be able to push a lot things beyond their limit in gentle conditions. My plug boots can go up to 140 but due to the ticker plastic and no walk more I ski them with the bolts at 120, which is still far stiffer than the two compromise boots I had before (Salomon X-Pro 120 and Lange XT 130) both were noodles next to a proper WC boot.

Same for skis, thank god I got some 191 Katanas and 190 Explosiv's/

**skibrd** · 02-20-2018, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by lordf

My problem with most gear, its why I ski in plug boots most of the time. Am I a good skier? Probably not compared to most on here but I'm also 6'4 and weigh 200lbs without gear on and its not fat...

I tend to be able to push a lot things beyond their limit in gentle conditions. My plug boots can go up to 140 but due to the ticker plastic and no walk more I ski them with the bolts at 120, which is still far stiffer than the two compromise boots I had before (Salomon X-Pro 120 and Lange XT 130) both were noodles next to a proper WC boot.

Same for skis, thank god I got some 191 Katanas and 190 Explosiv's/

You just summed up my experience with ski gear to a T. Same size, same issues.

At our size, I have been making the XT 130 Freetour work with a Pro Tour Liner and a WC Booster strap. Granted they still can drive my big stiff skis (Kastles, Pro Riders, 203 cm Shiros), but slightly softer skis (193 Shiros, 202 Fischer Rangers) are just fine. Might be worth checking out if you want a lighter boot for touring.

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**muted** · 02-20-2018, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by cmcrawfo

I think we have resolved the original question ....

I vote that the cunty thread drift should continue.

Cuz, I dont really get what you two are are arguing about .... what? Spancers don't make their athletes ride specific equipment at times? Spancers don't pay the bills (at times)? I am just a wanna be dentist, so I really want to be schooled on how it works.

Yes at times they need to wear certain equipment. When the cams are on them of course. But they still have some choice though, unless its like a catalogue shoot. At other times, when they are just skiing lifts for fun, the pros I am specifically talking about, ski what they want to ski and Salomon makes many boots. If they ski the MTN lab on days they coul ski anything, well draw your own conclusions.

But XXX onc spent a weekend a couple years ago skiing with a few pros, so he knows how exactly how it all works in black and white.

**cmcrawfo** · 02-20-2018, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by muted

Yes at times they need to wear certain equipment. When the cams are on them of course. But they still have some choice though, unless its like a catalogue shoot. At other times, when they are just skiing lifts for fun, the pros I am specifically talking about, ski what they want to ski and Salomon makes many boots. If they ski the MTN lab on days they coul ski anything, well draw your own conclusions.

But XXX onc spent a weekend a couple years ago skiing with a few pros, so he knows how exactly how it all works in black and white.

Roger... that's what I figured. I got a pro-from form a guy, who let (insert big ticket Pro bro company here) keep a few sleds at his place for a few years... so ya know. It was pretty much like I was pro for a season.

**Skerby** · 02-20-2018, 10:12 AM

I went from a pair of too big Full Tilts to a pair of just barely big enough MTN Labs.

The MTN Lab skis better when it is cold outside! It has sucked for me in above freezing weather, but skiing also sucks in above freezing conditions so who knows. Love the boot when it's cold out, but I've never done a direct comparison to an alpine setup.

I missed the rubber bootboard from my Full Tilts initially, but grew to love the rigid feel of MTN lab + King pins over time.

Gonna buy a pair of the lowest volume race boots I can find next year and see what that is like.

**Skerby** · 02-20-2018, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by tone capone

...Now just think of all the beaters that ski their tech bindings inbounds. I see legions of them at Bridger. It hurts my knees and back just to look at them in the lift line. I don't know how people do it day in and day out. No wonder all the orthopedic surgeons are setting up shop here.

Saw this as I backtracked through the thread. I had low back problems long before I skied AT gear exclusively. My back is far worse off now, can't say it's the gear, but it sure isn't super forgiving.

**XXX-er** · 02-20-2018, 10:57 AM

yeah I skied a trip with the filmaker which made for some interesting conversation and perspectives but I actualy didn't talk much to the crew when they came up

"Cosy T wears MTN Labs every day, I think "

but obviously I am not as bro ^^as you, I think

the number 1 answer to what boot is always get the one that fits, so how do 5 skiers show up wearing the same boot if not for money ?

If everybody looks at a picture and figures joe pro skier is on a mtn lab so it must be a good boot that would be the point of paying them, yeah maybe they ski something else on their day off but we don't get to see them pictures

**Skidog** · 02-20-2018, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by XXX-er

yeah I skied a trip with the filmaker which made for some interesting conversation and perspectives but I actualy didn't talk much to the crew,

the number 1 answer to what boot is always get the one that fits, so how do 5 skiers show up wearing the same boot if not for money ?

everybody looks at a picture and figures joe pro is on a mtn lab so it must be a good boot which would be the point of paying them,

yeah maybe they ski something else on their day off but we don't get to see them pictures

not that it means much, but ive seen cody post "non marketing" ski pics on instagram and I see him rocking mtn labs...take that for what its worth.

**XXX-er** · 02-20-2018, 11:43 AM

well he's got em, they were free and maybe they do fit him ... I duno

and really none of this means much

but to talk to the original question of blindsided by marketing BS the product or products are out there you can try a light boot if it doesnt work get something else its up to the end user to do their homework but I don't see marketing BS ... I just see a lot of choices and they are getting better every year

**Andyski** · 02-20-2018, 12:03 PM

It’s pretty common to talk to people who say their touring gear is great inbounds, or that their super light rando shit is great in pow, then you see them actually ski and it sure doesn’t look like my definition of “fun” or “great.”

Obviously, there people who fucking rip on light stuff, but it’s definitely the exception to the rule.

**jackstraw** · 02-20-2018, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

It also helps that Andrew is more pro-skier sized - if I recall when I met him briefly he's somewhere around 5' 8" 160lbs I'm guessing. I think those of us who are tall/fat need more burly boots to achieve the same ski performance.

Yeah, maybe. I've skied with pro's before they became pro in leather tele boots and not shockingly they ripped no matter what the gear.

If you are balanced, you're balanced.

Sure, ripping GS turns in a race situation is different and not what we're discussing here...I think anyway.

At the end of the day, whatever makes it easier and/or more comfortable for 'you' should be the boot of choice for everyone.

**jdadour** · 02-20-2018, 12:35 PM

Another big part of this discussion should be what kind of plastic is used. A lot of these touring boots now are dubbed "crossover" boots and use Grilamid as opposed to the standard Polyurethane (or Polyether for the Cochise 130) in Alpine boots. In my case, I went from a Dalbello Krypton to the Dalbello Lupo Carbon as my inbounds daily driver (wanted a walk mode and ability to use CAST on my inbounds setup), and now really like them and am comfortable skiing them every day. Dont really notice the difference just like Grinch mentioned above, they feel like an Alpine Boot

The Kryptons are Polyurethane, Lupo Carbons are Grilimad clog, Carbon cuff, and Polyurethane tongue. The only other differences are in the weight, which is not the much. In a 27.5 size, the Kryptons are 2200 grams, Lupo Carbons are 2000 grams. So at 2000 grams, is the Lupo Carbon really a touring boot? Thats in the territory of inbounds weight. Does the difference in plastic from Polyurethane to Grilimid make much of a difference in feel/performance?

The next closest comparable boot to the Lupo Carbon is probably the Cochise 130 which I'm pretty sure is no more than 2000 grams in a 27.5, and is made from Polyether. I've done some searching, but very interested to hear some thoughts on the differences in these 3 plastics.

**Choucas** · 02-20-2018, 01:59 PM

It took me a while to come to my senses. Stiff alpine boots and race construction (2 layers of metal) alpine skis are the only way to get the most out of your resort skiing. Maybe not fully true in the west, but for me, it's a fact here in the east. Light weight touring boots and light weight touring skis can be skied in resort but you're kidding yourself if you think you're skiing close to the same level as a full-on alpine set up. After going through a litany of touring boots that claimed to be able to cut it in resort (Garmont Adrenalin, Dynafit Titan, Mistraele RS, Lange Freetour), I threw in the towel. When I skin, I use touring gear. I accept the limitations on the down if the snow gets funky and chunky. If I get great conditions, I'm happy at reasonable speeds on my lightweight touring gear. I'm not talking rando stuff, Scarpa F1's and Kastle TX98's with Tectons. But if I'm riding lifts in the east, I leave this stuff at home unless it's a powder day when I'll most likely use the touring gear. If I spent more time out west in a normal snow year, I'd go with a burlier wider ski mounted with alpine bindings for powder days and heavy crud. Advancements have been made in touring boot downhill performance (and in touring ski and touring binding downhill performance), but it's still not in the same ballpark as with a true performance alpine boot.

**TahoeJ** · 02-20-2018, 02:38 PM

Resort skiing doesn’t always mean firm, ya know. There’s a lot of us who mostly ski powder days at the resort (or soft leftovers) and otherwise go BC.

**Cocximus** · 02-20-2018, 08:53 PM

Anyone feel blindsided by rocker, taper and width over 70mm? They really carve like shit compared to a proper piste ski.

**skibrd** · 02-20-2018, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by daught

Anyone feel blindsided by rocker, taper and width over 70mm? They really carve like shit compared to a proper piste ski.

Winner winner!!!

I don't think you can compare a three piece boot to a two piece boot. They just ski differently and if you like one style, stick with it for inbounds and touring.

I'm a Lange boot guy, RS140s (RIP), ZBs and XT Freetours. I couldn't make the Vulcan or Mercury work to save my life. I did make the TLT6P work after about 6 weeks of only skiing it in bounds, but never could get it to carve. I mearly could direct a ski sort of where I wanted and hoped it went there.

You need to know what type of skiing you want and get the equipment for that style. If you are only going to ski east coast ice, plug boots, P18s, narrow skis with lots of metal, and electric boot heaters. If you are only going to tour for pow in the Rockies, light fat skis, light boots and rando euro clothes. If you only ski west coast resort, stiff alpine boot, fat skis and P18s.

Stop listening to the hype and figure out who you are.

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**SUPERIOR** · 02-20-2018, 09:57 PM

Man, I’ve been skiing and touring all around. I’ve gone from the Midwest to Idaho, to Japan, and now to Jackson. It’s insane keeping up with all the different technologies and styles of gear that have come down the pipe.

When I first got into ski touring, I just started buying touring boots and never looked back because I couldn’t afford multiple pairs.

Now, getting into nice downhill boots is a revelation. I guess I’m not as cool as everybody else who has known this since the start?

Anyway, thanks for all the replies. It’s awesome to know a bunch of folks love their AT boots in the resort (and what they love). Also cool to hear people swear by stiff traditional boots.

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**XXX-er** · 02-20-2018, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by daught

Anyone feel blindsided by rocker, taper and width over 70mm? They really carve like shit compared to a proper piste ski.

No I have a whole fucking quiver of basicly every style/shape/width from 70mm to 135mm so if I brought the wrong ski I am willing to accept the responsibility and the blame

**lordf** · 02-21-2018, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by skibrd

You just summed up my experience with ski gear to a T. Same size, same issues.

At our size, I have been making the XT 130 Freetour work with a Pro Tour Liner and a WC Booster strap. Granted they still can drive my big stiff skis (Kastles, Pro Riders, 203 cm Shiros), but slightly softer skis (193 Shiros, 202 Fischer Rangers) are just fine. Might be worth checking out if you want a lighter boot for touring.

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I'm holding off to see what the 140 is next year. I think I will size down as I've done with my plugs and put a stiffer liner in as you have. Binding wise I will opt for shifts or Tectons.

**babybear** · 02-21-2018, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by jackstraw

Because it will always be the archer, not the arrow.

for sure but he really never had any touring boots he liked a ton so this is nice
And it helps that he can transfer liners from his alpine FT to the AT version- but he does want to get the AT liners cooked bc they have better pivot points. He's also getting the next shell size up tongues bc they raise the tongue height a bit

Originally Posted by Leavenworth Skier

It also helps that Andrew is more pro-skier sized - if I recall when I met him briefly he's somewhere around 5' 8" 160lbs I'm guessing. I think those of us who are tall/fat need more burly boots to achieve the same ski performance.

bro- quit checking out my boyfriend

he's 6 ft tall and skinny 165 or 170lbs