Inserts install problem

[sethschmautz]

I have installed probably 8-10 sets of inserts in a variety of skis. This time, I ran into a few problems that I have never had before. The minor problem is a little base dimpling that I think will come out with a little skiing and a few passes of the base flattening tool.

However, the bigger problem is that when I installed the inserts, I think I must have tapped a little further than normal and a void was created under the inserts. They installed much easier than expected (very little effort threading them in). I followed up by installed bindings very lightly. However, it would appear that I must not have installed lightly enough because several if the inserts are recessed a mm or two.

I'm concerned about water intrusion and could probably get the small dimples out if I could successfully remove the binding freedom inserts. I know I've read about this, but can't seem to find it by the search function (mobile).

I'm remembering something about a soldering iron to heat up the inserts... Is this a good idea? Should I just put a little more epoxy around the edge of the holes to keep water out?

Seth

[Kootenai]

I have used a soldering iron to remove screws that were set with epoxy. It took some patience but it worked. You will probably have even more luck because you can set the solder tip into the insert. I would see if you can back out the recessed insert and then maybe fill the over drilled hole with a little sawdust and epoxy to create filler.
Your idea to seal the top of the insert with epoxy would take a surgeons hand to not accidentally put epoxy onto your threads in side.

[grinch]

Be much easier to just lather some epixy around the edges. I sunk some in a touch deep before but there was already some epoxy that pushed out when I screwed the inset down. Sealed it no problem. Maybe put a screw in the insert before you spread some epoxy around it, then take the screw out. If the skis flat it should stay in place and not run in the insert.
I’ve taken regular screws out, that were epoxied , with a soldering iron but it took a while and I also need a vice grip on the driver and someone to put a lot of down force on the driver to breake the seal of the epoxy. Little by little (a 16th at a time) we got the screw out. Personally I don’t think I’d want to put the amount of heat ,required to get an epoxied insert out, into the ski and it’s lay up epoxy

[mooseknuckles]

I have had similar issues when installing bindings "lightly." I resolved the dimpled base by heating the insert area lightly with a heat gun to loosen the epoxy and backing the insert out a couple turns.

[GPP33]

Heated epoxy doesn’t reset like new. That includes the epoxy in the ski layup. I’d try to seal up the exposed core and invest in at tap to clean the threads out.

Realize though that the insert gets most of its strength from the top sheet, especially if there’s metal in the ski. If you’re below the top sheet you’re relying on threads that were designed for metal cut into a pretty soft wood. Not guaranteed failure but not ideal. This is why I DO NOT mount the binding until the epoxy is cured, lightly mounting it makes no sense at all.

[sethschmautz]

Those are some good points (about topsheet and heated epoxy). Hmm. I'm not quite sure what to do. I could probably heat and remove the bad inserts (I hope).

I already have a self bottoming tap that I used originally. I didn't feel the same firm bottoming on this ski that I have felt with the DPS pures I've done before.

I think my plan will be to remove the inserts and check the threads. If they look okay I'll probably reinstall with new epoxy.

On some of my initial insert mounts I didn't have a drill guide and I followed some advice here suggesting that was a way to ensure the inserts were in straight. It has worked great until this mount. Now, however, I may not do that again.

Seth

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[grinch]

If things go sideways you can put in an oversized heli coil to install another insert. I had a couple spinners over the years so I installed a heli coil for them. Binding freedom sells or sold the correct bit size and the heli coils but it probably could be sourced locally.
Not sure what bit your using to drill for inserts but my bit has a depth cage. It goes to the prrfect depth for the insert without epoxy. The epoxy takes up a bit of volume so I’ve ben just doing a few taps in the centre of the hole withy punch. The insert is pointed on the underside so that has given it more of a custom fit that the insert drill bit doesn’t quite do

[sethschmautz]

So... There's a reason why they say "hindsight is 20/20". My process this time was very smooth and straight forward. I took plenty of time in all steps (about 2 hours with a jig) because I haven't mounted skis this year.

I drilled normal holes first and then insert holes - both with a stepped bit. Depth was fine. I left the jig in place and used the tap with the jig. Not having done this, I wasn't sure how far down it should go. On my previous skis, there was a pretty solid bottom feeling when I would hit the bottom. Not so much with these. When I finally did feel the tension ramp up a bit, it must have been when u was dimpling the bases.

Inserts threaded in really nicely but I did notice a void at the bottom of the hole. Not familiar with this ski construction I chalked it up to new ski unfamiliarity.

I lightly mounted the bindings so that it would set up with all inserts straight, flipped the skis upside down per Big Steve's recommendation elsewhere, and let them dry overnight...

In hindsight, I think I could hear the tap dimpling those bases, but I couldn't feel it happening.

Ah well... I'll give the repair a shot tomorrow.

Seth

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[FlimFlamvanHam]

For what it's worth I have a set of skis I don't use anymore and are worthless that have 18 inserts in each ski. I thought before I give them away I'd try to remove the inserts with the soldering iron method (and just patch the holes). For me it was hopeless. Those things are in there.

[John_B]

It's been a year since I've installed inserts so this is a bit fuzzy, but I count the turns of the tap handle as tapping so every hole is consistent. I believe I do 4.5 complete rotations of the tap. But like I said it's been a year so either look this up or calculate it yourself for the next pair.

For your current situation I'd vote to use a toothpick to carefully smear epoxy around the edges of the extra deep holes before I tried to pull and reinstall any inserts. Like said above do that with a screw in the insert to protect the threads from epoxy.

[MegaStoke]

For your current situation I'd vote to use a toothpick to carefully smear epoxy around the edges of the extra deep holes before I tried to pull and reinstall any inserts. Like said above do that with a screw in the insert to protect the threads from epoxy.

Seconded. I would not try to remove or relocate the old inserts. Get things sealed up, tap the interior threads if you get epoxy in them, grab some longer machine screws if needed, and move on. They should be bomber. In the future, don't screw them past flush, even if they're not bottomed out.

[sethschmautz]

Thanks for the reminder. I have a pair of skis like that also. That's a much better place to start. I was also wondering if an easy out might work after heating the insert. I think I have one of those kids around somewhere also...

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[1000-oaks]

Unless you can see wood above the recessed inserts, it's probably nothing to worry about. Exposed topsheet and fiberglass are waterproof, and if you want some extra sealing, paint on some clear nail polish. Just be sure to use screws that are a little longer in those holes to make sure you have enough thread engagement.

Epoxy doesn't melt with heat, it breaks down and becomes brittle. If you want to redo those inserts, buy an EZ Out set ("Spiral Flute Screw Extractors"), a small butane torch, and a long 5mm screw. Thread the screw all the way into the insert, and then heat up the top of the long screw with the torch sideways (don't burn the topsheet) until you hear the epoxy just start to hiss and sizzle. Catch it as quickly as you can, as the threads cut into your wood core are getting browned a little by the heat. Then quickly unscrew the screw with leather gloves and pliers, and use the EZ Out to unscrew the hot insert from the ski. You're probably ruin those inserts removing them, but after they're out you can install new inserts with new epoxy and be good as new.

[sethschmautz]

.

Epoxy doesn't melt with heat, it breaks down and becomes brittle. If you want to redo those inserts, buy an EZ Out set ("Spiral Flute Screw Extractors"), a small butane torch, and a long 5mm screw. Thread the screw all the way into the insert, and then heat up the top of the long screw with the torch sideways (don't burn the topsheet) until you hear the epoxy just start to hiss and sizzle. Catch it as quickly as you can, as the threads cut into your wood core are getting browned a little by the heat. Then quickly unscrew the screw with leather gloves and pliers, and use the EZ Out to unscrew the hot insert from the ski. You're probably ruin those inserts removing them, but after they're out you can install new inserts with new epoxy and be good as new.

Thanks a ton. That sounds completely doable. I think I have all of those things to give this a shot later if I can locate my ez out set.

Seth

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[GPP33]

Thanks a ton. That sounds completely doable. I think I have all of those things to give this a shot later if I can locate my ez out set.

Seth

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I don’t think I’d risk it if I were you. It can probably be done but if it doesn’t work you’ll have a jacked up unusable insert stuck in your ski. If it does work you’ll have bad epoxy stuck down in your hole and probably some bad epoxy in the ski layup immeaditly around the insert which is where you need it the most. You also risk having some hard epoxy stuck on the end of the insert and wiping out the threads as you unscrew it.

I’ve never built a ski or removed an insert so take my opinion for what it’s worth.

Edit: binding freedom inserts have a slot, why are we talking about using an easy out?

[1000-oaks]

^ I've done it before, works fine. Sure, use the slot in the insert and the tool if the slot isn't filled with epoxy. Can put more torque on it with tap wrench and EZ Out, which digs into the threads. This also works with old Helicoils.

Do check to make sure your EZ Out is the right size to fit 5mm without bottoming out in the hole. Some of the new design screw extractors are very stubby and should work.

Another option is put a M5 nut on the screw plus a short section of tubing (with a smaller OD than an insert), before threading into ski insert. Tighten nut to lock screw to bad insert, then heat, then back out screw and bad insert as one unit.

[sethschmautz]

Another option is put a M5 nut on the screw plus a short section of tubing (with a smaller OD than an insert), before threading into ski insert. Tighten nut to lock screw to bad insert, then heat, then back out screw and bad insert as one unit.

What kind of tubing? I like this idea as it seems like it might be easier on the inserts.

[1000-oaks]

What kind of tubing? I like this idea as it seems like it might be easier on the inserts.

If the insert was at the surface, you could thread in the screw and then tighten the locknut (or locknuts if you want to double-nut it) to lock the screw to the insert. But being recessed, the locknut can't reach the insert, so you need a bit of tubing that fits through the hole in the topsheet to go between the nut and the insert. Something that's 5mm ID and 6mm or 1/4" OD.

I'd probably just go the EZ Out route, less fuckery.

[sethschmautz]

Went the easy out route on my test skis and it went really well. Spent some time figuring it duration of heating time with the torch. I figured that the less effort it took to pull the insert, the hotter it was getting. I'll want to keep the insert as cool as possible while still being able to remove them when doing the real ski. In the test ski, I was able to pull many with little force on easy out - to the point where they are reusable. 5mm screws thread in perfectly fine.

Thanks again for the help. I should have this project complete by the end of the week in time to ski this weekend.

Seth

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[Muggydude]

For what it's worth my first set of inserts I installed some too deep by 1-3mm (on3p skis). I just very carefully lathered epoxy around the edges.

No issues after 4 years so far...

I think you could easily get away with that imo. Less risk

[1000-oaks]

In the test ski, I was able to pull many with little force on easy out - to the point where they are reusable.

Yeah, epoxy really gets weak when it hits a certain temp.

[Johnny Utah]

Haven’t followed every post in detail, but I’ll just add a quick related anecdote. I️ had an insert that got super stuck when dry fitting. Stripped the slots very quickly trying to pull out. After many other struggles, EZ out was an immediate win — those things work very well.

Anyone know common reasons why a threaded insert hole would be too tight, besides depth? I️ was having issues on several holes only after going a few threads deep.

[sethschmautz]

Well. . . I had good luck with the EZ out for all but one insert. Didn't work on it too hard, but ended up leaving it in after it didn't want to come immediately. The others have been pulled easily and replaced. They are setting up and should be ready to ski tomorrow or this weekend. Because I hate leaving things undone or not completed (sometimes to my detriment), I may give that last insert another shot over the summer. I'm guessing that a little more heat and a shorter EZ out would be the fix. Otherwise, everything worked perfectly. Thanks again for the help everybody.

JU - not sure, but I've experienced the same thing. Even on replacing the inserts on this ski, I dry fit everything to make sure the threads were still in good shape (which they were). Some of them were tighter than others, but when lubricated with epoxy, they went in much easier. In my case, I was guessing that I heated the epoxy back up and it cured again in a less-than perfect thread shape, but not positive.

Seth

[maximusj]

Re: dimpling. It seems to me this should not happen unless you are tapping beyond the depth of your drilled hole or you have some junk in the hole (shavings or too much epoxy) that is forcing the base to dimple when the insert is screwed in. Or, do some epoxys out there that expand when they cure?

I measured my stepped insert drill bit, and then wrapped some electrical tape around my tap at that depth. So far so good...

I have definitely had shavings get compacted in the bottom of the hole when drilling rather than cleared properly. I stick a pick in there and scrape around a bit to clear it out.

[dschane]

Too late, but fwiw, Binding Freedom used to sell silicone plugs to keep epoxy out of the inserts. For recessed inserts, you can put in a plug and goop up around the insert to form a seal, let dry, remove plug, and clean up around hole with a box cutter or knife.

For dimples, I've had zero luck getting them out of the bases, even after removing the offending screw (never bothered to try to remove an insert), heating base, clamping it down, etc.

Are those skis uber-light, as in under 7.5 lb per ski?