Humbling experience on the Steep Gullies-Props to A-Basin Patrol!

[skaredshtles]

these tend to help keep the mediocre skiers out of trouble

It definitely works for me.

[old goat]

The Palisades at Sugar Bowl is a wall of mandatory straight lines and airs, when it's open which isn't often. (Mainly it's target practice for the Avalauncher.) Guy I know went down the more open slope at the top, went over a cliff, leaving a ski at the top. He wasn't hurt. He asked patrol to get his ski. They told him no.

[2FUNKY]

The Palisades at Sugar Bowl is a wall of mandatory straight lines and airs, when it's open which isn't often. (Mainly it's target practice for the Avalauncher.) Guy I know went down the more open slope at the top, went over a cliff, leaving a ski at the top. He wasn't hurt. He asked patrol to get his ski. They told him no.

Cut my teeth on the Palisades at sugar bowl in my younger days. Such rad terrain.

[skiNEwhere]

I'd recommend patrol toss up a few of these:

Attachment 223081

I stay the fuck away from places with signs like this...

Would steer more people away than the "extreme terrain" signs which only seems to attract skiers who need a rad IG photo

[snowaddict91]

Would steer more people away than the "extreme terrain" signs which only seems to attract skiers who need a rad IG photo

Those tend to make me crane my neck over and say "oh really..."

Mostly kidding. Thanks for posting OP. Nice reminder that shit can happen. I used to wander around CB alone and I wasn't half the skier I am now. Certainly had a few sobering moments.

[Meadow Skipper]

... Guy I know went down the more open slope at the top, went over a cliff, leaving a ski at the top. He wasn't hurt. He asked patrol to get his ski. They told him no.

Golf clap.

[Vitamin I]

Hey OP, great that this is a learning experience for you with no severe consequences. As part of your learning in this case, I encourage you to spend time thinking about the different standards for risk for when you're solo vs. for when you're with a partner. It's kind of amazing how robust "the buddy system" can be, and kind of a wake up call that there's so little room for error when you're solo.

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[old goat]

Hey OP, great that this is a learning experience for you with no severe consequences. As part of your learning in this case, I encourage you to spend time thinking about the different standards for risk for when you're solo vs. for when you're with a partner. It's kind of amazing how robust "the buddy system" can be, and kind of a wake up call that there's so little room for error when you're solo.

.

You sure about that?
https://www.vaildaily.com/news/man-f...ed-he-got-out/

The condescending lecture wasn't called for, especially since you have no idea how your ability and experience compare to the OP's. Those of us who ski, hike, and climb alone are very aware of the potential consequences.

[~mikey b]

Yeah I’m never going to give people shit for going solo. I do it a lot.

[ASmileyFace]

You sure about that?
https://www.vaildaily.com/news/man-f...ed-he-got-out/

I really don't want to derail this thread because there is a lot of good stuff happening here but...

The man with whom Failla was in the East Vail backcountry called 911 Monday night when he fell off a trail and hiked for several hours trying to work his way out. Tuesday morning after Failla did not show up, the man told the Eagle County Sheriff's Office that he had not reported Failla missing because he had assumed Failla had made it out on his own.

What the fuck? He just assumed his BC partner went home when he had to hike out of East Vail?! What is that bullshit. And then he didn't even report him missing till the next day?! Was this dude high as fuck? This is gross negligence at best and shady as fuck at worst.

EDIT: Thread for the Vail incident.

[Vitamin I]

old goat, what are you talking about?

You sure about that?

Sure about what precisely?

The condescending lecture wasn't called for, especially since you have no idea how your ability and experience compare to the OP's.

What condescending lecture? By whom? The OP told us he wanted to "research" and "learn from this experience", so I encouraged him with an idea about that. I even wrote the word "encourage".

Those of us who ski, hike, and climb alone are very aware of the potential consequences.

Who all do you mean by "those of us"? Are you saying every human who ever went solo was very aware? I meet some people who are, and some people who are not.

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[hafjell]

I solo most of my days in the backcountry. Doesn't make it smart or safe.

[Name Redacted]

Some of the only upsides to having the gullies inbounds now are that I can go in solo (which I've unwisely done countless times before they were inbounds) and the fact that I don't have to wear a pack in there anymore. But when I'm solo, I definitely take fewer risks, and don't go poking round.

One huge disadvantage now is that you can't scope your lines from the road while waiting for a ride anymore. Unless you stop and look on your way up in the am, you never get a good view of the lines, which are pretty complex. Maybe stopping and take a photo for reference would be a good idea...

[old goat]

old goat, what are you talking about?



Sure about what precisely?




.

did you read the link?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Yeah I’m never going to give people shit for going solo. I do it a lot.

I'm with you, I do most of my backcountry travel solo, on bike, skis or foot.

[Vitamin I]

did you read the link?

Yes, I read the link. And if that's your response (so short and vague), then I'm left to guess what you meant from before, so I'm guessing you presented that link as if to say "This is a case where the buddy system was no less risky than solo, and so my point here refutes your claim that buddy system risks and solo risks are different." That would be silly. The link you provided is NOT AN EXAMPLE OF THE BUDDY SYSTEM. It is an example of 2 people who had an easy opportunity to try the buddy system, BUT THEY CHOSE NOT TO TRY THE BUDDY SYSTEM. That case is not a strike against the buddy system.

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[skiracer88_00]

Lots of good stuff in here. Risk tolerance is very personal. The key has always been for me: understanding the risks and making a conscious decision to accept those risks and doing everything necessary to minimize the risks. I have skied many days in the backcountry alone, sometimes on pretty big lines, but in the spring during melt-freeze when the avalanche danger was essentially negligible. I assessed the risks , picked my lines after doing a lot of research and was confident in my decision and my ability to get down safely.

The disconnect here is that I didn't assess the risk well because I fell into the fallacy of thinking that ski areas are generally managed in such a way to keep me out of trouble. In general, this is true in the front range, although it is not true for ski areas in other parts of our state, but I know those areas pretty well (at least where I should avoid). But even at places like CB, patrol often puts signs at the top of close-out lines that are relatively easily accessible.

I didn't give the steep gullies the respect they deserve and it came back to bite me. The fact that a safety net existed in this area (due to it being in-bounds) shouldn't have played into my decision making with respect to inspecting terrain before I ski it (just like having a beacon or airbag shouldn't affect my risk tolerance in avalanche terrain), but unfortunately i fell into that trap and let my guard down because I was in-bounds. I would never even think about dropping into a line in the backcountry where the choke was out of view unless I knew exactly what it looked like.

That said, I'm not sure that the buddy system would have helped me here like it would in a backcountry emergency. Either way, I still would have needed that rope rescue. I was in an area in-bounds that sees a significant amount of traffic. I also have cell phone service at A-Basin. My mistake was a failure to inspect the line prior to skiing it, not necessarily skiing without a buddy. Although a buddy would have helped if I went off a cliff and crashed (and was unconscious), I believe that risk is relatively minor compared to the risk of getting cliffed out due to my unfamiliarity with the area.

[N1CK.]

AsmileyFace: glad you shared this, and that you made it out with only your ego bruised.

Vitamin I : fwiw, I didn't read a single word of sarcasm in your post. I guess some people see everything through a negative lens.

[old goat]

Lots of good stuff in here. Risk tolerance is very personal. The key has always been for me: understanding the risks and making a conscious decision to accept those risks and doing everything necessary to minimize the risks. I have skied many days in the backcountry alone, sometimes on pretty big lines, but in the spring during melt-freeze when the avalanche danger was essentially negligible. I assessed the risks , picked my lines after doing a lot of research and was confident in my decision and my ability to get down safely.

The disconnect here is that I didn't assess the risk well because I fell into the fallacy of thinking that ski areas are generally managed in such a way to keep me out of trouble. In general, this is true in the front range, although it is not true for ski areas in other parts of our state, but I know those areas pretty well (at least where I should avoid). But even at places like CB, patrol often puts signs at the top of close-out lines that are relatively easily accessible.

I didn't give the steep gullies the respect they deserve and it came back to bite me. The fact that a safety net existed in this area (due to it being in-bounds) shouldn't have played into my decision making with respect to inspecting terrain before I ski it (just like having a beacon or airbag shouldn't affect my risk tolerance in avalanche terrain), but unfortunately i fell into that trap and let my guard down because I was in-bounds. I would never even think about dropping into a line in the backcountry where the choke was out of view unless I knew exactly what it looked like.

That said, I'm not sure that the buddy system would have helped me here like it would in a backcountry emergency. Either way, I still would have needed that rope rescue. I was in an area in-bounds that sees a significant amount of traffic. I also have cell phone service at A-Basin. My mistake was a failure to inspect the line prior to skiing it, not necessarily skiing without a buddy. Although a buddy would have helped if I went off a cliff and crashed (and was unconscious), I believe that risk is relatively minor compared to the risk of getting cliffed out due to my unfamiliarity with the area.

Or carry a rope : )

[simple]

Or carry a rope : )

Shit imagine if we were more like Europeans? No ski patrol sorry call the heli....

[cravenmorhead]

Thanks for sharing OP. I was exploring Whistler solo this past week, and this was certainly in my head when I was poking around in pretty rowdy terrain in poor visibility by myself. Definitely erred on the side of caution a couple of times when I couldn't scout exits, got myself somewhere where I could see the full line, and then saved the steeper stuff for the second or third laps.

[stfu&gbtw]

I've spent a lot of time exploring AB, mostly solo... There are a lot of places where you can get a little stuck, but the SG are relatively unique compared to the rest of the area in that you can get really stuck, as illustrated here. Everyone who skis the alleys has been on both sides of the unexpected 15 minute trip through lower 2nd/3rd - either waiting on a partner, or working your way off one of the little cliffs hiding in there. Conditions in each pitch in Gauthier can change dramatically, but there are also well established exits above each section. West turbo shouldn't even make the list.. That's three turns into a 35* clearing. Most of the east wall isn't even really that steep. Usually just moving around up there causes me more pucker than skiing down. But skiing the SG is legitimately challenging, route finding is very difficult to ascertain without assistance, and any kind of extraction for an injured party would be a nightmare. Everything's easy when shit goes right, and we easily become blind to mistakes we don't get punished for, and how many things routinely break our way. The SG will compound your bad decisions more so than most other parts of AB.

And props to ABSP. You guys are awesome.

[Meadow Skipper]

Shit imagine if we were more like Europeans? No ski patrol sorry call the heli....

That might be pretty cool. Convert the patrol - all rescue, no ticket pulling. I'd be down.

[old goat]

I've spent a lot of time exploring AB, mostly solo... There are a lot of places where you can get a little stuck, but the SG are relatively unique compared to the rest of the area in that you can get really stuck, as illustrated here. Everyone who skis the alleys has been on both sides of the unexpected 15 minute trip through lower 2nd/3rd - either waiting on a partner, or working your way off one of the little cliffs hiding in there. Conditions in each pitch in Gauthier can change dramatically, but there are also well established exits above each section. West turbo shouldn't even make the list.. That's three turns into a 35* clearing. Most of the east wall isn't even really that steep. Usually just moving around up there causes me more pucker than skiing down. But skiing the SG is legitimately challenging, route finding is very difficult to ascertain without assistance, and any kind of extraction for an injured party would be a nightmare. Everything's easy when shit goes right, and we easily become blind to mistakes we don't get punished for, and how many things routinely break our way. The SG will compound your bad decisions more so than most other parts of AB.

And props to ABSP. You guys are awesome.

Never been there but extraction looks pretty simple to me. Collect the body parts at the bottom in a sack, haul out behind a sled.

Rumor is that Tram Face at Squaw was once open for a day--patrol spent the day roping people off and closed it for good. Or the story could be BS. Before my time and way, way over my head.

[Vitamin I]

My mistake was a failure to inspect the line prior to skiing it...I fell into the fallacy...i fell into that trap and let my guard down...

Nice. Failure analysis, plus some failure meta-analysis about the human lapse. Like all humans, you knew, but lapsed anyway. All humans have momentary lapses (and aside: we are all even capable of longterm mindtraps or "trances" that we might have a hard time snapping ourselves out of without some kind of external trigger). IMO, our own lapses are the key risk to be managed. To your credit, your overconfidence was not based on a falsehood---it was based on a fact, that Patrol would back you up in a worst-case outcome, and you were right about that.

...I'm not sure that the buddy system would have helped me here...

I completely agree. My earlier suggestion to ponder "the buddy system" vs. solo, was intended to trigger thought about how to stay on top of risk management without getting burned by lapses, while continuing to face risk solo as much as you want. For me, what I try to do is to "imprint" something on my brain that will still be present and influencing me even when a lapse occurs. If you buy any of my fuzzy mumbo jumbo here, well, each person could think of their own powerful or profound thing to imprint on themselves, but mine is the following. As a young math nerd, I could intentionally indulge in blowing my own mind by pondering profound significances in the difference between 0 and 1. Later as a mountaineer, I decided to similarly indulge in pondering profound significances in the difference between solo vs 2-person risk management---1 vs 2. (The differences are fundamental, powerful, and profound to me.) Because of that intentional "imprinting", when I'm solo in the mountains, I believe there's more frequently something present in the back of my mind that helps pull me back during lapses.

...Sometimes I wonder if other mountain people nerd out on meta risk management in human systems, but I won't hijack this thread with my unscientific mumbo jumbo.

.