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Thread: Heat-moldable shells opinions?
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01-31-2018, 09:11 AM #1
Heat-moldable shells opinions?
So in Whistler, a bootfitter told me in so many words that Fischer Vacuums are a terrible boot, and that it was a train wreck for the shop he worked at.
I need new boots, and six-year-old Fischer Vacuum 130s need to be retired (150 days).
Ummm, so I have a second Vacuum shell (unskied), or can go another route.
It seems the industry is going in the moldable shell direction, with all but Fischer just using body weight to stretch the shell out.
Quite Frankly getting my last Vacuums right took three months, and four fittings.
TLDR: anyone skiing in Salomon, Atomic, or Nordica moldable shells and liking it?
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01-31-2018, 09:15 AM #2
I've been skiing Solly X-max for 4yrs. They were a pretty good fit when I tried them on...after molding: they're like slippers...can wear them all day.
BUT: I think it's dependent on finding something close to your foot AND a person who knows what they're doing.It makes perfect sense...until you think about it.
I suspect there's logic behind the madness, but I'm too dumb to see it.
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01-31-2018, 09:23 AM #3
Lots of days in my two pairs of Atomic Memory Fit boots. The heat molding process works really well, up to a point - with my 104mm wide foot (plus bunions) I baked the 98mm shells, then punched manually at the met heads and now they fit like a glove. If you had more normal feet and only needed a minor width increase, you would be fine with just the oven. You will see other brands jumping in with oven moldable shells next year.
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01-31-2018, 09:39 AM #4
I'm in Solly X-Max 130's. Unmolded, they were a pretty good fit for me, but a bit tight across the top of the foot. I'd hoped that the shell molding process would fix that. It helped, but didn't alleviate it - they're still a bit too tight across the top. Obviously this is going to be different for every foot; my point is more just that the shell molding helps a bit, but doesn't seem to make particularly drastic changes. The shell mold made a difference, but it was less of a difference than I was expecting. All in all, I'm fairly happy with the boot though.
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02-04-2018, 02:26 PM #5
Thanks for replies. My foot is 111 mm across at widest when weighted, so I ordered X Pro 120s (the 100 mm vs 98 mm option), so we’ll see.
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02-04-2018, 02:35 PM #6
The bootfitter I spoke with told me in same conversation that a good-fitting boot is not comfortable. (Yeah I’d heard that before)
But it hit me thinking at what point of pain is the limit? WC racers (and by no means am I comparing me or any other recreational skier to them) spend 6-8 hours on their boots every day for several months...
... and they have theoretically the most painful may tight fit, but I guarantee they don’t have any pain because it wouldn’t be sustainable.
Pain so bad half of your foot goes numb and you are hobbling back to your hotel room? That can’t be normal.
Anyway just wondered specifically about that comment.
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02-04-2018, 03:00 PM #7
Everyone has their own definition of "painful" and their own threshold of pain tolerance.
Every skier has their own definition of what constitutes a "good skiing" boot.
People who ski a lot don't usually think in terms of their feet going numb in a new boot, they think in terms of how many days it will take before the liner packs out and it feels fine. Plus they have other boots to switch to part way through the day when the new boot becomes intolerable. These people are usually dialing in their "new" boot in the middle of summer or the spring before it becomes their "every day" boot.
But yes, a sponsored World Cup athlete has much better access to expert bootfitting services than most people, as well as a better understanding of what is possible. Most skiers (and many bootfitters) don't have a full grasp of how much can be done to modify a boot's fit.
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02-04-2018, 03:24 PM #8
True dat man; the shop I was at said they don’t even grind boots anymore because of fear of going all the way through.
Another thing I thought about; a lot more people need TIGHT boots than expert skiers. Certainly flex and construction, etc will change from skier to skier.
But (speaking fir myself; as one TGR so eloquently put it: I ski powder like an old person), I am not comfortable (from a skiing perspective) unless I have an ultra-tight locked fit. The kind of terrain I ski (albeit at an old person’s pace, apparently), I cannot have play in the boots.
It would seem to me a combination of footbed, liner, and correct shell molding could generate something pretty tight without bone bash. I Susie g in the real world this takes hours upon hours and is reserved fir pros and/or people with the time and patience, and the willingness of the bootfitter to see it’s a long-term project rather than a one-time vacationing customer.
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02-04-2018, 03:54 PM #9
Most of the World Cup lot also have boots so far beyond custom it's not worth a comparison. Alain Baxter is my local fitter and he does most of the Head team, I saw an off the shelf Raptor RD and the one for Vonn, the amount of work that goes into them is insane. Most of them are also refitted on a week by week basis and have different options for changes in temperature.
I went from a 130 flex Lange XT to the 130 Flex Salomon Lab boot and the difference from shop to race room plastic is quite a lot, I much prefer the slight discomfort in return for far better control.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ProI Came, I Saw, I .... Made A Slight Effort & Then Went Home For Lunch.
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02-04-2018, 04:00 PM #10King potato
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What shop?
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02-04-2018, 07:45 PM #11
re: heat molding
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...rs-and-shells)
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02-06-2018, 01:47 PM #12
Hmm, I just completed my DIY molding on solly x pro 120s.
I need to remold the left shell as it didn’t get enough heat... those tiny boot heating boxes in shops aren’t so tiny; one can forget how tall a ski boot is (and can’t stand upright in my oven). Hmm.
All is well except for the forward lean, which feels like 20+ degrees... though I don’t think there’s much out there more upright (except for Fischer if the forward lean on the Vacuum station concept is to be believed).
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02-07-2018, 04:30 PM #13Registered User
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Just picked up some Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 and did the shell cook thing. Loved the ankle/heel fit, but they were way snug up front. It was a pretty laughably easy way to make them super comfy in 30 minutes.
I’ve never had tremendous success with the punch and grind thing from various bootfitters... might not get the right spot, might not solve the issue, etc.
Boots fit great, ski great, and didn’t hurt at all my first day out. I’m a believer so far.
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02-07-2018, 05:21 PM #14
Anyone doing this at home liquefy their liners?
I put mine on aluminum foil (so it didn’t touch the oven rack), and part of the heel melted through the gray coating on the outside of the ankles.
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02-08-2018, 11:22 AM #15Registered User
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My boot fitter has been super hesitant heat moulding my Atomic Hawx Ultra 130's. He said that the great heel, ankle/calf fit will also enlarge with the heading process and they would get more sloppy. Any truth to this? I need a bunch more room in the toe box (width and length) area and a little more room over the instep but don't want to loose the great heel/ankle hold.
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02-08-2018, 11:48 AM #16
This is the regular Hawx Ultra 130? White and orange?
It certainly won't get any smaller with the Memory Fit process, but it shouldn't become much looser around the ankle/heel unless there is pressure there from your foot. It will help the instep and width issues (for more length you'll have to punch them).
The white Grilamid in the regular Hawx Ultra is much more temperature sensitive than the black Grilamid used in the Ultra XTD 130. Go easy on the heat and it will punch like butter. I widened my son's boots to ~ 110mm in the forefoot and gave him about 5mm more length no problem just by punching and never cooked the shells, just the liners. You can grind the bootboard for more instep height.
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02-08-2018, 11:49 AM #17Registered User
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02-08-2018, 02:01 PM #18Registered User
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Thanks for the responses Greg and 2funky. Mine the are white and orange boots. I've had them punched a bunch but still have some pressure, so I'm debating giving the heat moulding a shot. I ski in zip fits, and I've had the boot boards sanded down a bit so far. I actually find the grip from the boot board makes it harder to slide the zip fits in. Any tricks to make this happen?
Thanks for all the advice.
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02-09-2018, 09:20 AM #19
IME, punching yields more room than heat molding - in fact you may lose some of the definition from the punches when you bake the shell. The white Hawx Ultra can be punched a LOT for width, I would go back and ask for more. As for getting the ZipFits in, silicone spray or thin smooth tape might help, but you may feel the liner slipping around inside the boot.
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02-09-2018, 12:43 PM #20
As long as you don’t fuck it up by doing something stupid, you shouldn’t see any negitive issues from doing a shell bake on a custom shell or memory fit boot.
If either the boot fitter or skier are functionally retarded you might want to hold off, otherwise proceed as Amer intended.
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02-09-2018, 12:54 PM #21
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02-09-2018, 01:31 PM #22
First, check the ankle, heel and achilies to make sure there is adiquate space for your foot to get back there. If not, address that first. If so, grind, then punch the toe if necessary. Baking the shells rarely lends itself to extra toe length. Regardless you’d need to get the shell of a plug boot up past 300 d F if you want any change. I can’t imagine that being fun for you through the molding process.
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02-09-2018, 01:52 PM #23
Exactly why I wanted to mold my Salomon a in fisher vacuum. Ton of pressure on heel area, very little on forefoot. Perfect fit and crazy good heel hold
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02-09-2018, 03:32 PM #24
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02-09-2018, 03:37 PM #25
Any materials engineers here? When plastic (regardless of what kind) is injection-molded into a ski boot shape, and there physical/molecular phenomenon that give it “memory”?
Or, in other words, is the shape of the plastic when it was molded somewhat irreversible (in the long-term thermodynamic sense)???
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