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Thread: Ikon Pass

  1. #3151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    Provide evidence that the high price of daily lift tickets has anything to do with Ikon passes.

    Go ahead, please

    But you won’t because tryout just reaching in the dark for something, ANYTHING, to blame on Ikon.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottime View Post


    Vail bought KW 8 years ago. Season passes are up 65%. Day tickets are up 80%. Ski lessons are up 110%. Food is up 75%. Pretty sure we have not seen inflation like that in any other sector.


    KW used to offer a first time beginner package of beginner lift, rentals and all day lesson for $60. And they had a pass and/or day ticket for the lower mountain lifts that was discounted as well. They also offered 5 and 10 packs of lessons at a discount. Those are all gone.
    Absent Alterra or Vail explicitly stating that they have increased all these prices specifically because of the passes, is there anything you would actually consider "evidence?"

    Fwiw, I am definitely not someone who looks for reasons to hate on the Ikon or Epic Pass. I've enjoyed both of them through the years and appreciate what I get to ski for what I pay. I would not be able to afford the places I've gone without them. That said, I almost always ski solo and have noticed the prices for casual skiers and how they've made it harder and harder to lure them.

    Maybe all these resorts are just greedy or standard operating costs have naturally risen to warrant the staggering increases but I have my doubts.

  2. #3152
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardtodeath View Post
    As a local single mountain passholder, it's clear that Ikon and Epic ARE killing the casual skiier and yeah, it's really bad for the sport in the long run.

    That said, if I was an east coast skiier, yeah I'd buy one, because they are fucking giving it away ​pretty much.
    So on this thread people are simultaneously arguing that the Ikon/Epic is both killing the sport of skiing all while making their mountains too crowded. Non of this computes to me. It can't be both.
    All the threads about crystal, squaw, Solitude, Big Sky are all bitching about how they are too crowded. BCC/LCC traffic, crystal closing day tickets sales etc.
    After decades of doom and gloom about the age of skiers increasing and the implosion of the baby boom generation, I see nothing but crowded pay lots, long lines and etc. I'd say for now, it's injecting more money into the mountains.

  3. #3153
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    I think most of us are saying that the majors are enjoying short term gains now it is ultimately going to cost them a lot more revenue in the future. The independents and affordability dying off is just the canary in the coal mine.
    Live Free or Die

  4. #3154
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    Vail is Ikon?

    No.

    D- on your report.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  5. #3155
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    I think most of us are saying that while mountains are enjoying short term gains now it is ultimately going to cost them a lot more revenue in the future.
    Climate change, aging americans and poorer middle class are the future. They are getting it while the getting is good. Ski areas as a business are doing great even compared to 5 years ago. No offense to anyone on this enthusiast board, but the areas don't care about your "core" lifestyle. They want to pump people through the SLC airport into the 1000's of condos at PC and Deer Valley and LCC weekly. From my point of view they are doing it and doing it well. I can't fault them for that really. Is the 'spirit" dead at a lot of places, probably. However, I still have access to a reasonable pass, plentiful gear etc. 10 years ago, all I heard was boomers were dying and condos would flood the market and mountains would be empty.

  6. #3156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    So on this thread people are simultaneously arguing that the Ikon/Epic is both killing the sport of skiing all while making their mountains too crowded. Non of this computes to me. It can't be both.
    All the threads about crystal, squaw, Solitude, Big Sky are all bitching about how they are too crowded. BCC/LCC traffic, crystal closing day tickets sales etc.
    After decades of doom and gloom about the age of skiers increasing and the implosion of the baby boom generation, I see nothing but crowded pay lots, long lines and etc. I'd say for now, it's injecting more money into the mountains.
    Bitches want to bitch. Whether there is any sense to it or not.

    It is doing both at the same time. Itís making skiing too affordable and driving huge crowds and itís causing too few new skiers.

    Pretty soon weíll all have to hike for our turns because the whole model is collapsing!!!!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  7. #3157
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    After decades of doom and gloom about the age of skiers increasing and the implosion of the baby boom generation, I see nothing but crowded pay lots, long lines and etc. I'd say for now, it's injecting more money into the mountains.
    I see what you're saying...I do wonder about the shutdowns/prices of smaller mountains and how much it contributes to the overall lessening of the sport. The megaresorts may actually be more crowded but it doesn't necessarily mean the overall numbers aren't down. Maybe the small mtns aren't worth protecting as much as many people seem to think but I do believe they can be quite valuable for getting new skiers hooked.

    Fwiw, I've yet to hear any numbers based argument put forth that the amount of skiers isn't decreasing. If more money is coming into the mountains, I thought it was pretty accepted that it mostly coming from well established skiers/boomers who were drawn into the sport before it got so expensive.

  8. #3158
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    The biggest personal effect I've seen (aside from solitude going from relatively chill to "you'd better not even try to drive up BCC" after they went ikon unlimited) is that my friends from back east either buy an Ikon or an Epic. The casuals buy the Epic and I will never fucking ever be able to convince them to come ski Jackson or the Bird, because why would they? It would cost them close to what they pay for their entire Epic pass. Likewise, I won't ever ski telluride again, because it's simply too expensive and I'd rather go to wolf creek or something - but my friends with Epic passes will only ever ski epic mountains.

    The hardcore folks just buy an Ikon and come ski the good mountains, which is cool, but growing up there was never any sort of segregation like that - you'd agree on where to go and everyone would buy a lift ticket, or usually a 3 of 4 days ticket. We'd generally buy them at the window even, though I realize you can still do that online.

    I work near Ogden, and I work with a lot of people who used to regularly ski 10-15 times a year with day passes. None of them ski at all anymore. Even one of my coworkers who lives IN kimball junction has stated he's done skiing for good because "park city is filled with tourists on epic passes" and I guess he's too much of a puss to come ski LCC. I have plenty of people I grew up with skiing back east who have flat out told me "I skied when I was younger, but it's not worth it to me to buy a pass and it's too expensive for day tickets, so fuck it."

    That scares me for the long term viability of the sport, even though yeah - right now, it's driving record crowds to resorts. But casuals are being turned off. And for those Epic passholders, I see very little "gnar mobility" if you will - I see almost no chance of taking someone who hits keystone and breck and improving their skills by forcing them to send it at steeper, more technical resorts. And that's a shame.

  9. #3159
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncskier View Post
    Climate change, aging americans and poorer middle class are the future. They are getting it while the getting is good. Ski areas as a business are doing great even compared to 5 years ago. No offense to anyone on this enthusiast board, but the areas don't care about your "core" lifestyle. They want to pump people through the SLC airport into the 1000's of condos at PC and Deer Valley and LCC weekly. From my point of view they are doing it and doing it well. I can't fault them for that really. Is the 'spirit" dead at a lot of places, probably. However, I still have access to a reasonable pass, plentiful gear etc. 10 years ago, all I heard was boomers were dying and condos would flood the market and mountains would be empty.
    Give it time and all that will come to pass.

    I ski patrolled professionally for 30+ years. It was the Golden Age for that lifestyle. That is life dead and gone now. Same with most of the other "ski bum" jobs and lifestyles. No one can afford to do it anymore and it is no surprise that the bulk of the mountain workers at my area are on Visa's from other countries. Has nothing to do with IKON, that is just a symptom.

    Is that bad? I have no idea. It is sad.
    Ooof!

  10. #3160
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardtodeath View Post
    TWO orders of magnitude actually
    You morons donít know what magnitude means.

  11. #3161
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    Let's not dis the Boomers so much, even though we deserve it. I'd say chances are yo mama is a Boomer.

    And, don't forget Europe. It can actually be a more affordable alternative if prices jack too high.

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  12. #3162
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    You morons don’t know what magnitude means.
    I was gonna bring that up, but then I decided that this thread was clearly not the place for accurate maths.

  13. #3163
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcski View Post
    You morons don’t know what magnitude means.
    Name:  morans.jpg
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  14. #3164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    And, don't forget Europe. It can actually be a more affordable alternative if prices jack too high.
    You know... we should really try to suss out why this is the case.

    Euro lift tickets: more affordable
    Euro lodging: more affordable
    Euro food: more affordable and WAY more delicious
    Euro transit: light years better

    How is it that Europeans can do it... but we can't?

  15. #3165
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaredshtles View Post
    You know... we should really try to suss out why this is the case.

    Euro lift tickets: more affordable
    Euro lodging: more affordable
    Euro food: more affordable and WAY more delicious
    Euro transit: light years better

    How is it that Europeans can do it... but we can't?
    I bet it's because they're hogging all the driverless cars technology

  16. #3166
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    Somebody was talking about this on the lift today, how a lot of commercials are suddenly featuring bi racial couples and families, and gay people. You would think, huh, really? Scott Galloway explained it well to me, that it's all a result of our inequality. Basically, only the top ten percent of earners and then top five percent of substantial asset holders have any money, certainly positive equity, good credit, DISPOSABLE income. It's that bad, especially after the financial crash. So, marketers aren't dumb, (and the Ikon pass is nothing but a marketing vehicle), they buy billions worth of data, and know that the monied coast people who are mostly educated and liberal in thought are the best markets to advertise to. Everybody else doesn't count, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO MONEY. And it will get worse . I think that's sad, not some Podunk family ski hill going under. If you want to fix shit, fix that. Redistribute all the money to more people so more people can afford to ski. Get out of your bubble, people, most people are in debt and getting by. This isn't 1970 when an auto worker could afford to go skiing with the family.

    Feel the Bern, to save skiing. Seriously. At least Warren

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  17. #3167
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraham View Post
    I bet it's because they're hogging all the driverless cars technology

  18. #3168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Somebody was talking about this on the lift today, how a lot of commercials are suddenly featuring bi racial couples and families, and gay people. You would think, huh, really? Scott Galloway explained it well to me, that it's all a result of our inequality. Basically, only the top ten percent of earners and then top five percent of substantial asset holders have any money, certainly positive equity, good credit, DISPOSABLE income. It's that bad, especially after the financial crash. So, marketers aren't dum, they but billions worth of data, and know that the monied coast people who are mostly educated and liberal in thought are the best markets to advertise to. Everybody else doesn't count, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO MONEY. And it will get worse . I think that's sad, not some Podunk family ski hill going under. If you want to fix shit, fix that. Redistribute all the money to more people so more people can afford to ski. Get out of your bubble, people, most people are in debt and getting by. This isn't 1970 when an auto worker could afford to go skiing with the family.

    Feel the Bern, to save skiing. Seriously. At least Warren
    Commercials?

    OK, Boomer.


  19. #3169
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    That's because you kids can't afford cable.

    Let's do some livin'
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  20. #3170
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    ...

    Let's do some livin'
    After, we die

  21. #3171
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    Don't you have to live in a bubble to think Elizabeth Warren could get elected? (Not sure if my last post was deleted..)

  22. #3172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaaarrrp View Post
    Don't you have to live in a bubble to think Elizabeth Warren could get elected? (Not sure if my last post was deleted..)
    Maybe. But let's let the primaries unfold. Now it's pundit noise. Let the people speak. As I see it, the people like Bernie and Warren, and like Biden like America liked Hillary, but worse. We'll see.

    Let's do some livin'
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  23. #3173
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    I'd say I have a degree in physics, because I do. But my thesis adviser would be giving me mad shit right now for reading comprehension! Yes, 150 is only 15 x 10^1 and is only one order of magnitude larger than 15. I R DUM

    Definitely was comparing 6000 to 15, like a dumbass.

    Actually, come to think of it, my ol' adviser would probably call me a dumbass, laugh, then shout "good enough for government work" and we'd go get a beer. Fuck I miss that guy.

  24. #3174
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    If you don't think the value passes are not a direct and intentional driver of higher day lift ticket prices, then you have no idea how the current model of pricing skiing actually works.

  25. #3175
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    Quote Originally Posted by boardtodeath View Post
    I'd say I have a degree in physics, because I do. But my thesis adviser would be giving me mad shit right now for reading comprehension! Yes, 150 is only 15 x 10^1 and is only one order of magnitude larger than 15. I R DUM

    Definitely was comparing 6000 to 15, like a dumbass.

    Actually, come to think of it, my ol' adviser would probably call me a dumbass, laugh, then shout "good enough for government work" and we'd go get a beer. Fuck I miss that guy.

    Maybe you are smart but your post is with blue font on a blue background. Dumbass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Maybe. But let's let the primaries unfold. Now it's pundit noise. Let the people speak. As I see it, the people like Bernie and Warren, and like Biden like America liked Hillary, but worse. We'll see.
    Jan. 21, 2020 at 5:43 p.m. MST

    Odds are that you have not been following the recent libertarian dust-up over the merits of an Elizabeth Warren presidency. To give a brief recap: The main contenders were Will Wilkinson and Jerry Taylor of the “liberaltarian” Niskanen Center, who have been Warren-friendly to varying degrees; their opponents were colleague Samuel Hammond, along with Tyler Cowen of the more traditionally libertarian Mercatus Center, who touched off the whole debate with a withering critique of Warren’s policies.

    A point-by-point exploration of their arguments would exceed the space allotted for this column by several thousand inches. But I think one can sum up the libertarian approach to Warren with a single question: How big a problem do you think billionaires, and the mega-successful corporations they helm, pose to the average American? Actually, come to think of it, I think that’s about how you’d sum up the question of Warren from any angle.

    Which is why this debate ultimately matters to a lot more people than just some cranky libertarians: It speaks directly to a whole lot of young people who see that the economy doesn’t work for them the way it did for their parents and grandparents, and therefore conclude that somewhere along the way, the people it is working for — the barons of finance, the giants of Silicon Valley — must have rigged the system in their favor.

    To be fair, they’re not entirely wrong. As Adam Smith once wrote, “People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.” Bankers and tech executives very much included. So I find myself nodding in agreement with Wilkinson — and, by extension, with the progressive base of the Democratic Party — when he says: “Warren’s general diagnosis of the problem — it’s a rigged system of anticompetitive rent-seeking enabled by insufficiently democratic and representative political institutions — is broadly similar to my own.”


    Yet they’re not entirely right, either. Are big corporations, or billionaires, or banks, or tech giants, or health insurers and pharmaceutical firms — to name some of Warren’s favorite targets — really the reason that young people are struggling with enormous student loans? Are they the reason that millennial homeownership lags that of their parents? Are they the reason that recent college graduates are more likely than their elders to be underemployed? Have they driven the cost of health insurance to its current stratospheric levels?

    Sure, Warren may be eager to sic her Consumer Financial Protection Bureau on your mortgage lender if you fall afoul of some obscure clause, but that’s not the problem for most Americans. They’re much more likely to struggle with finding affordable housing in prosperous cities. In fairness, Warren does have a plan to ease the zoning regulations that cause the shortage — but for some reason she rarely talks about it on the campaign trail, possibly because it’s constitutionally dubious, but more likely because it would alienate her affluent suburban base.


    Similarly, Warren is eager to forgive student loans — a $1.6 trillion transfer to some of the most affluent members of society — but not to attack degree creep, which has walled off most of the best jobs for those who hold a bachelor of arts while enriching a lot of colleges. She targets insurers and drugmakers, but not the hospitals and medical workers who drive most of our health-care costs.

    Too many of her proposals are like this; they focus on corporate villains or billionaires while ignoring the much broader class of people that Richard Reeves of the Brookings Institution dubbed the “Dream Hoarders” — the well-educated upper-middle-class people who are desperate to pass their privilege onto their kids, and are unhappy about the steadily mounting cost of doing so. They’re Warren’s base.

    Unfortunately, the Dream Hoarders — and I include myself in their number — are a much bigger problem for the rest of America than the billionaires whose wealth Warren promises to expropriate. Those billionaires got that way by building companies that disrupted cozy local monopolies, and they fund coding camps for high-school dropouts; Dream Hoarders protect their professional licensing regimes and insist on ever more extensive and expensive educations in the people they hire. Dream Hoarders also pull every lever to keep their own housing prices high — and poorer kids out of their schools — while using their wealth to carefully guide their children over the hurdles they’ve erected.


    Which may be why the best predictor of a neighborhood with a low degree of income mobility is not the gap between the top 1 percent and everyone else — the gap that Warren focuses on with all her talk of taxing billionaires — but the distance between the top quarter and the bottom. If you really want to unrig the system, you need to focus less on a handful of billionaires than on the iron grip that the Dream Hoarders have on America’s most powerful institutions — including, to all appearances, Elizabeth Warren’s campaign.
    Ooof!

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