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Thread: Ikon Pass
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01-22-2020, 05:44 PM #3151
I should be so lucky .
anyone still cares the pic of a huge kt line I posted a few pages back was a random photo I googled as "huge lift line" I dont know the date or year. It could be many.
FWIW last friday was crowded at alpine but the lines weren't bad after the am rush cleared.
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01-22-2020, 11:18 PM #3152Registered User
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If you're referring to the rumored 3 year contract that Ikon (Alterra) has with with its partner resorts, I wouldn't be so sure...
Alterra is a big company with a lot of money. I think they're taking the "Uber" approach to their business model, which is to hedge against Vail. They can lose money in the short term if need be, so that they can buy time in the long term to expand, build out, acquire new mountains, etc...
Basically, everyone (Ikon Resorts) takes a little hit, so that they don't have to take a big hit individually in this zero sum game. Every time Vail acquires a new resort, or adds a partner to the Epic Pass, it takes money off the table for Alterra and independent resorts.
I can only imagine how easy it would be for Alterra execs to point this out to the various independent resort owners: why would anyone, except the no-money die hards and no-money local dirtbags, buy an Alta season pass for $1,000 when they can get an Epic Pass with 50 unlimited resorts for $800?
Since only a few serious skiers purchase both Epic and Ikon, for most it's either one or the other, this takes that segment out of Vails clutches and into Alterra and its partner resorts. In this respect, any monies Ikon resorts get is a net positive because they wouldn't see these customers otherwise.
But it has to be worth it. If the quality fo the Alterra portfolio/destinations doesn't have some star-power, big name resorts (JHMR, Alta, Snowbird, Revelstoke, Ski Big3, etc...) then it simply wouldn't be able to compete qualitatively with Epic.
And I think that's what the Alterra CEO, Rusty Gregory, was referring to in the interview I posted the other day, which incidentally seems to have revived this thread. He was saying that Alterra is giving its partner resorts some flexibility in how they implement Ikon at their respective mountains in the coming years.
Case in point, JHMR and Aspen now include an Ikon Base pass with their season pass, after their respective local uproar from year one Ikon.
Speaking of which, I was really surprised to learn that Alta/SB were unable to negotiate the same concessions, but I image that will change for the 2020/2021 season. If not, I won't be buying another Alta-Bird season pass unless it includes the Ikon Base, and I know I'm not the only one.
I purchased my Alta-Bird ($1,400) and Ikon ($750) pass early, before JHMR and Aspen announced their Ikon Base addition. Had I known in advance, I would have just bought a JHMR season pass, $1,400, and paid the $300 upgrade fee to the full Ikon pass, for a total of $1,700... and saved myself $450... or $750 if I chose not to upgrade to the full Ikon.
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01-23-2020, 02:38 PM #3153Registered User
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This was an interesting video (embedded in the link). Not sure if the info is correct, but seems plausible.
https://snowbrains.com/boomers-blame...-ski-industry/
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01-23-2020, 04:09 PM #3154
That is a well done piece. I'm biased because it supports my prediction that skiing may die with the Boomers.
Looking at the RE market in Vermont, and, man, it's not good, unless you're buying. So much cheaper than the Rockies. Seems that Killington has a new derelict motel and restaraunt on 4 or nearby every year I come up. Midweek motel pricing is competitively cheap. They may be building a new lodge, but nobody else is building. Same up further north near Sugarbush. Hope he got a good price, because it may be downhill from here . The Catskills are a model for that kind of death. (Which, btw, is where that ghost resort is that she opens with. An amenity to a summer resort)
Cheap flights to better mountains.
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01-23-2020, 05:52 PM #3155
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01-23-2020, 05:59 PM #3156
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01-23-2020, 06:00 PM #3157Banned
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01-23-2020, 06:05 PM #3158
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01-23-2020, 06:06 PM #3159
Full IKON is 7 days at Alta/Bird
crab in my shoe mouth
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01-23-2020, 06:07 PM #3160
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01-23-2020, 06:21 PM #3161
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01-23-2020, 06:27 PM #3162
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01-23-2020, 09:12 PM #3163Registered User
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when you say the Uber model, you mean losing billions in the hopes that somehow you corner the market and hold out until self-driving car technology arrives to save your fucked balance sheet? alterra has an existential problem, in that the ikon pass is qualitatively diminished if they lose their premier independent resorts. look at social media for half a second and look at a milion ex-epic passholders who are fucking pumped that they now get to ski resorts like Alta/Bird, Jackson, maybe revelstoke and big sky and a few others FOR FREE. if independents pull out, it hurts Ikon bad, so maybe alterra is willing to up the ante and put a pound of flesh on the table to keep their pass competitive. pay more and more, even as the market pushes them to pay less and less.
if several independent resorts pull out at the same time, what do you do? IF you can't get your unlimited skiing buffet with alta, snowbird, or JHMR included, what would you do? Epic pass is NOT an alternative. before, people paid more to visit these resorts because they wanted to avoid the vail/epic shitshow
so maybe you don't care about quality and you're fine sharing the back bowls with all of denver and you buy an epic pass, but I don't believe it, because it sounds like you know quality. there will be enough people who care about quality to pay to support good independent resorts with storied brand names and history. and I might be an idealist, but why did these wealthy people invest their wealth into a ski resort of all things, when they could have chosen so many other higher-returning investments? some part of them cares about the product and the quality, and if they feel like they could pull out and probably make similar money, they might do that. if their goal is to maximize returns at the expense of everything else, I have no clue how they were dumb enough to buy a ski resort.
in any case, you might be right that "flexibility" for independent resorts will convince them to stay on the pass in some form. but it might take the form of 2 days instead of 5 on base, and the full ikon might be 5 with blackouts instead of 7. who knows? but if that happened, it eliminates the incentive for repeat customers outside of the intermountain west to buy a base pass instead of a multi-day lift pass.
I've had both epic passes and rocky mountain super passes when I lived in CO. vail didn't have to spend so much money on new resorts or partnerships until ikon came along to start the race to the bottom. and although I enjoyed copper/winterpark/eldora, obviously the rocky mountain superpass wasn't such a killer without the independents. KSL might be some smart private equity guys with access to cheap debt and their finger on the scales of the financial system, but a lot of smart guys with MBAs have fucked up massively before. if they want to go into debt to hold onto their independents or to try and buy their independents at a massive markup, we'll see how that goes.
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01-23-2020, 09:16 PM #3164
I’ve assumed labor costs and availability is why they flipped the model to make holidays less busy due to black out pass sales.
Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
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01-23-2020, 10:33 PM #3165
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01-23-2020, 10:36 PM #3166
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01-24-2020, 01:22 PM #3167Registered User
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Good points all around, Lester.
Yes, quality experience is of paramount importance to me, and I'm willing to pay for it too. However, it's not just the terrain and annual snowfall that determine it. For me, and a lot of people, it's the crowds, and crowds are not just long lift lines. If only that were the case...
I'm meeting more and more people each day that are going over to ski touring. For them, and increasingly myself, it's not just the long lift lines, it's the traffic getting to the mountain, and the bad vides of powder panic in the lift line, and the race to get first tracks each day, only to watch huge mountain faces completely tracked out in a matter of minutes.
Last week at Snowbird on a bluebird day. Mineral basin (which is freakin huge) had been closed for 3 or 4 days due to a big storm. I must have been one of at least a hundred out there waiting for ski patrol to open it up. Some guys had been waiting over an hour. When the rope finally dropped, it was a mob rush to the bottom... kills the whole vibe and serenity of skiing powder.
Whole thing tracked out about less than an hour which allowed for about 3/4 sends due to the massive lift line at the bottom.
So yeah, I'm seriously considering ski touring next season too, and it has nothing to do with the cost of skiing at big resorts.
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01-24-2020, 08:53 PM #3168
If you waited around for an hour for Minnie to open and expected something different then I don’t know how to help you...
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01-24-2020, 09:43 PM #3169Galibier Designcrafting technology in service of music
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01-25-2020, 10:20 AM #3170
Is Mineral that south facing basin that seems to have the biggest crowds at the bird? 15 years ago the rope drop to even just the bookends would get a crowd built up.
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01-25-2020, 10:22 AM #3171
^ yup
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01-25-2020, 11:09 AM #3172
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01-25-2020, 11:30 AM #3173
IMO one of the reasons Alta/Bird consistently cranks out top pro skiers isn’t the pow. It’s the in between days of tram laps and High T runs at full speed through chop and soft bumps. Want to get good at going fast through marginal conditions? Chase LCC pros around for a couple years.
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01-25-2020, 11:57 AM #3174
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01-25-2020, 12:28 PM #3175
Ikon Pass
^^^interesting. Hope it stays that way. That was the result at Kirkwood right after Vail purchased. Been 8 years and more folks have found more of the books and crannies. Still some good zones left hidden, but we still have just as many new traverse slopes.
Imagine with the scope of your hill and the tourist nature of your visitors, it will stay good longer.
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