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Thread: Ikon Pass

  1. #3076
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    Sometimes it's hard to discern bitching from complaining on the internet.
    "We don't beat the reaper by living longer, we beat the reaper by living well and living fully." - Randy Pausch

  2. #3077
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    In 02 epic pass included Breck, keystone, and A basin with 10 days at Vail hardly today's super pass. I was patrolling at Copper at the time. The other mags are right, you are simply a smelly self-righteous cunt. I'd continue to argue with you, but I'd rather not smell like fish.

  3. #3078
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    They've been around for twenty years and steamrolling the whole business . Of course they're substainable.

    Ticket pricing will follow the market. When they start losing customers to high prices, high prices will go down.

    The top ten percent and the Boomers are the market. All the rest are slaves to that market. And, if you go back and check out the market over the past decade, it's done very well.
    They're sustainable for old fucks who will never have to see the outcome of the model. Whether that's by choosing not to pay attention, or by simple attrition. You don't get new skiers into this at $150/day to sit in a chair and go uphill.

    It's like your publishing industry. They had such great deals. $6.99 got you a year's subscription plus they'd throw in 6 months of another magazine for free! It was great! But the future was visible already. Almost none of them are worth picking up at this point. The writing is watered down, ads dominate the available space, and they don't even bother to quilt the paper so it's worth using to wipe your ass.
    Of course there are exceptions. But it's not hard to see why people are concerned if you can look around a little bit.

  4. #3079
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    I’m getting a little warren miller vibe from 2funky tonight. Amen!

  5. #3080
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowsparkco View Post
    In 02 epic pass included Breck, keystone, and A basin with 10 days at Vail hardly today's super pass. I was patrolling at Copper at the time. The other mags are right, you are simply a smelly self-righteous cunt. I'd continue to argue with you, but I'd rather not smell like fish.
    Well, it sure was Super for the time, and every year they've gotten more and more Super. Nothing stays the same.


    You're just jealous because you have some shit job that stops you from traveling because of the time and money involved. Boo hoo, I can't ski at Whistler and/or Taos this year like all those fishy stinky Superpass people. Too bad. I can. But, maybe I won't. It's all about the possibilities.

  6. #3081
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    Quote Originally Posted by abraham View Post
    They're sustainable for old fucks who will never have to see the outcome of the model. Whether that's by choosing not to pay attention, or by simple attrition. You don't get new skiers into this at $150/day to sit in a chair and go uphill.

    It's like your publishing industry. They had such great deals. $6.99 got you a year's subscription plus they'd throw in 6 months of another magazine for free! It was great! But the future was visible already. Almost none of them are worth picking up at this point. The writing is watered down, ads dominate the available space, and they don't even bother to quilt the paper so it's worth using to wipe your ass.
    Of course there are exceptions. But it's not hard to see why people are concerned if you can look around a little bit.
    If you're so "concerned" about the future, you should save that energy in your brain for many other things than the ski industry.

    And, "old folks" built this industry and sustain it. It may very well nearly die in ten to twenty years when the Boomers pass, much like the currently bubbled real estate industry. Show some respect for your elders, son.

    And, your analysis of the death of magazines is way the fuck off. Quite simply, the internet, and before that, cable TV killed that industry, not cheap subscriptions. That's where all the advertising revenue went.

  7. #3082
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    Ikon Pass

    Butthurt “locals” are still searching for ways to blame the Ikon pass for every undesired result. Now theyre predicting a doom and gloom future because of the Ikon?

    LOL


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  8. #3083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    If you're so "concerned" about the future, you should save that energy in your brain for many other things than the ski industry.

    And, "old folks" built this industry and sustain it. It may very well nearly die in ten to twenty years when the Boomers pass, much like the currently bubbled real estate industry. Show some respect for your elders, son.

    .
    Good point. It was you Boomers that fucked up the world. The ski industry is small potatoes compared to the havoc you wreaked. So, it’s not shocking that you give two shits about the future. Fucking boomers. Things can only
    Improve once your generation is gone.

    In seriousness, all the new to skiing folks I know are (1) families and (2) wealthy. As in wealthy enough to spend $1000 or more on a weekend. I spent three days at Kirkwood with two families. Lodging came to just above $600. Two families have passes. Ours has been skiing for decades. The other just got into it a few years ago as they saw how awesome it was for family time. One parent is a surgeon, the other had wealthy parents. They are loaded.

    The other family bought day tickets and lessons. $740 for lessons and lifts for the kids and the parents spent about $400 on their lift tickets. That’s $1740 for a three day weekend. Dad’s an engineer manager at a tech firm. Mom is in marketing. Obviously wealthy enough to spend that kind of coin and they are now planning to spend more than that at Squaw in a few weeks.

    There are few small ski hills left in Tahoe. Nothing that you can ski for cheap.

    I grew up near Albany NY. We started skiing because my mom wanted us out of the house. It was $150/kid/season for Sunday lift ticket, rentals and lessons for 12 weeks. These days I spend $1000s a year to feed my addiction. But if I was just getting started at this point in my life I would just say - no way can I afford that stupid sport.

    Are the Ikon/Epic going to kill the industry. Not sure. But it is becoming harder and harder to find some where cheap to try it out.

  9. #3084
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    What's driving day ticket pricing up so high? Is it the cost of running the ski area? (wages, maintenance, insurance?)
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  10. #3085
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ottime View Post
    Good point. It was you Boomers that fucked up the world. The ski industry is small potatoes compared to the havoc you wreaked. So, it’s not shocking that you give two shits about the future. Fucking boomers. Things can only
    Improve once your generation is gone.

    In seriousness, all the new to skiing folks I know are (1) families and (2) wealthy. As in wealthy enough to spend $1000 or more on a weekend. I spent three days at Kirkwood with two families. Lodging came to just above $600. Two families have passes. Ours has been skiing for decades. The other just got into it a few years ago as they saw how awesome it was for family time. One parent is a surgeon, the other had wealthy parents. They are loaded.

    The other family bought day tickets and lessons. $740 for lessons and lifts for the kids and the parents spent about $400 on their lift tickets. That’s $1740 for a three day weekend. Dad’s an engineer manager at a tech firm. Mom is in marketing. Obviously wealthy enough to spend that kind of coin and they are now planning to spend more than that at Squaw in a few weeks.

    There are few small ski hills left in Tahoe. Nothing that you can ski for cheap.

    I grew up near Albany NY. We started skiing because my mom wanted us out of the house. It was $150/kid/season for Sunday lift ticket, rentals and lessons for 12 weeks. These days I spend $1000s a year to feed my addiction. But if I was just getting started at this point in my life I would just say - no way can I afford that stupid sport.

    Are the Ikon/Epic going to kill the industry. Not sure. But it is becoming harder and harder to find some where cheap to try it out.
    Your whole argument just contradicted the last part.

    The Ikon pass et al allow people to ski at their local hill AND ski other destinations while limiting the lift ticket end of the high expense of skiing.

    We went to Aspen for 4 days / 3 nights. Spent $700 on lodging and nothing on tickets.

    Otherwise it’d be 4 x 4 x 150 = $2400 + lodging.

    Ikon is doing the exact opposite of your self contradicted argument that it’s mating skiing expensive.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  11. #3086
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    I feel like these companies could make huge strides in luring/keeping new skiers if they made a couple tweaks:

    -Extend the period which you can buy the pass into the main part of the season. If needed, restrict this to first time buyers.
    -Offer a discounted rate for first time purchasers or a more limited option that includes only a few select mountains (I realize they have certain local passes but again you must purchase these early and they might not be very well geared towards an east coaster). Maybe even a program that allows non pass owners to use prior bought lift tickets at a partner mountain to get you a discount at another one.

    It really is preposterous to me that my Base pass and all it comes with will end up costing me less than what my friends will pay for lift tickets on our upcoming weeklong trip to Steamboat. They will probably realize that once they get there but it's quite a stretch to get some casual newish skier to drop $600-800 in spring/summer for a trip they may take almost a year later. I am pretty sure that if my friends could have purchased the pass much closer to our Feb trip that they would also use it to visit Snowshoe (closest Ikon mtn) one or multiple times during the winter which increases the chance they actually get hooked. They might even look to ski if they are on a random short trip out west or up north during the winter. Without the pass, they wouldn't even think of it. Also, without the pass or any discounts, they really have no necessity or lure to visit a local mountain-especially if they just dropped $800+ on 5 days of lift tickets while out west and will have to pay another hundo or whatever for every local day theyre on the mtn.

  12. #3087
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Chupacabra View Post
    What's driving day ticket pricing up so high? Is it the cost of running the ski area? (wages, maintenance, insurance?)
    Supply and demand, oldest driver in the book.

    The folks that pay walk up rates either don't care or are uninformed about the ticket aggregators.

    I see these multi-passes as not going away. It puts asses on the chairs and in the F&B and rental shops.

    The doom and gloom is from folks unlucky enough or unwilling enough to travel and ski. I don't like the new normal but it is what it is.

    I have met a lot of nice folks who are skiing on IKON passes and I refuse to be a dick about it. I do think my home area should reduce season pass prices but that won't happen either.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

    "Happiest years of my life were earning < $8.00 and hour, collecting unemployment every spring and fall, no car, no debt and no responsibilities. 1984-1990 Park City UT"

  13. #3088
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    Is it crazy to think that plenty of people who pay walk up rates do so grudgingly because they like the sport just enough to do it a few days a year but not enough to convince themselves to drop $600+ for benefits/savings almost a year in the future? I feel like even those who can afford it are going to end up skiing less simply because of the cumulative cost.

    I find it a little baffling that people get mad at people who buy these passes unless they just don't want people on the east coast/south ever skiing. How tf else do they ever expect people who don't live right next to an amazing mountain to enjoy the sport with any frequency?

  14. #3089
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    Ikon Pass

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    Your whole argument just contradicted the last part.

    The Ikon pass et al allow people to ski at their local hill AND ski other destinations while limiting the lift ticket end of the high expense of skiing.

    We went to Aspen for 4 days / 3 nights. Spent $700 on lodging and nothing on tickets.

    Otherwise it’d be 4 x 4 x 150 = $2400 + lodging.

    Ikon is doing the exact opposite of your self contradicted argument that it’s mating skiing expensive.


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Honestly don’t know what your point is.

    Are you suggesting that people who want to try out the sport for their first time to buy season passes and uses them at Aspen?

    I was talking about people who are not yet ready to dive in with a family purchase of passes.

    The family I mentioned above are likely to buy a pass next year, but at this point they are still only getting up 2-3 times per year.

    And like I said, they have money and can afford this. I’ve got plenty of friends who look at the cost of skiing and just say no way. Not worth them taking the chance that their kids will hate it and spend all that money.

    Big hills cost a lot to run. Small hills are disappearing. Or being bought by mega corps.

    Vail bought KW 8 years ago. Season passes are up 65%. Day tickets are up 80%. Ski lessons are up 110%. Food is up 75%. Pretty sure we have not seen inflation like that in any other sector.

    KW used to offer a first time beginner package of beginner lift, rentals and all day lesson for $60. And they had a pass and/or day ticket for the lower mountain lifts that was discounted as well. They also offered 5 and 10 packs of lessons at a discount. Those are all gone.

  15. #3090
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    $13 fridays at McCauley..... skiing doesn’t have to be expensive.


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  16. #3091
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    I don't hear any North Tahoe skiers complaining that high daily lift prices are driving people away.
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  17. #3092
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    Quote Originally Posted by m2711c View Post
    $13 fridays at McCauley..... skiing doesn’t have to be expensive.


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    Utica Club Baby!! Love to see it!

  18. #3093
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    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    I don't hear any North Tahoe skiers complaining that high daily lift prices are driving people away.
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    I've heard plenty of old time Squaw loyalists say they wish for a return to $1800 (or whatever they were) season pass prices. Would that line still look like that then?
    Quote Originally Posted by powder11 View Post
    if you have to resort to taking advice from the nitwits on this forum, then you're doomed.

  19. #3094
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    ^^^^was that this past Friday? Geez.

  20. #3095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaaarrrp View Post
    Is it crazy to think that plenty of people who pay walk up rates do so grudgingly because they like the sport just enough to do it a few days a year but not enough to convince themselves to drop $600+ for benefits/savings almost a year in the future? I feel like even those who can afford it are going to end up skiing less simply because of the cumulative cost.

    I find it a little baffling that people get mad at people who buy these passes unless they just don't want people on the east coast/south ever skiing. How tf else do they ever expect people who don't live right next to an amazing mountain to enjoy the sport with any frequency?
    I don't have any problem with people buying these passes. Hell I wish I could travel to take advantage of them more. My concern is more about excess consolidation making the ski lift business less durable over time.

    From what I've seen in the last decade season prices have gone down while day tickets have gone up at a rate that doesn't match. It doesn't really change my budget, I get a pass and use it then travel a little bit. But I used to have 5-10 friends who would go ski 1-5 times a year, sometimes at night at a discount, sometimes in the spring, but they wouldn't really consider themselves skiers. And they never bought passes. It's been a while since I've ridden chairs with any of them, day tickets got expensive. To me that's a bit concerning though I don't have any good solutions. I know it's an expensive sport and I'm lucky I got into it



    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    If you're so "concerned" about the future, you should save that energy in your brain for many other things than the ski industry.

    And, "old folks" built this industry and sustain it. It may very well nearly die in ten to twenty years when the Boomers pass, much like the currently bubbled real estate industry. Show some respect for your elders, son.

    And, your analysis of the death of magazines is way the fuck off. Quite simply, the internet, and before that, cable TV killed that industry, not cheap subscriptions. That's where all the advertising revenue went.
    Hey I'm here for the hedonism too, skiing is fun.

    You're mostly right about the magazines but I was trying to push your buttons. Got dutch ovened by the dog and couldn't go back to sleep. Might as well share some misery.

  21. #3096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick View Post
    Your whole argument just contradicted the last part.

    The Ikon pass et al allow people to ski at their local hill AND ski other destinations while limiting the lift ticket end of the high expense of skiing.

    We went to Aspen for 4 days / 3 nights. Spent $700 on lodging and nothing on tickets.

    Otherwise it’d be 4 x 4 x 150 = $2400 + lodging.

    Ikon is doing the exact opposite of your self contradicted argument that it’s mating skiing expensive.


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    of course you and benny love the ikon pass, because it's an all-you-can-ski-buffet. it's making it unsustainably cheap for long-time skiers like you--that doesn't mean it's cheap for a 35yo dad to try and figure out how to take his family on their first ski trip. megapasses are obviously not the only thing to blame for that, but it's not too hard to see the point people are making.

    Separately, just because megapass worked for vail and works well for you, that doesn't mean it's good for all resorts. since wealthy people are being converted from spending $120/day on lift passes to spending $600 on a megapass that nets individual resorts far less per skier day, the resorts make up for cannibalization by bumping average window rates to $165+ and limiting availability of other ticket deals. JHMR wanted to boost January travel a few years ago, so they used to have a deal where any season passholder could get 50% off window rate for most of January, and my understanding is that they still made more money per skier day doing stuff like that than they get from Ikon passholders. that deal also gave passholders an incentive to come during a time when the resort could handle more crowds, versus everybody from denver driving up all at once in February. that deal is gone now.

    dealing with Alterra is a net negative for premier independent resorts like Alta/Snowbird and JHMR. they're encouraging wealthy people who would gladly pay $140/day to give them pennies on the dollar, and they're not making up for it with ancillary revenue, while they have serious complaints from long-time customers about a diminished skiing experience. that's unsustainable too. those resorts were not getting "steamrolled" by vail. now, they're getting steamrolled by people who can't believe their luck, that someone just gave away their product for free.

  22. #3097
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    Can we get confirmation that picture is from a weekend? Hope it's not actually a wednesday

  23. #3098
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    Remember the model this is based on - it's very similar to health clubs. The majority of the folks never use the club enough to really take advantage of the monthly dues. They pay their dues to feel healthier. People pay for passes because then they are a skier/snowboarder.

    I recently saw an article from back in the day wherein they said the average passholder at a particular mountain was skiing around 46 days per year. The Ikon pass isn't designed for them. Doug Fish, the marketer behind the Indy Pass, said in an article in Ski Magazine last year that the average NON-passholder these days skis 4.6 times per year. That's who these passes are designed to capture. They get a pass, now maybe they ski 6-8 days, and everybody wins.

    Sure, some people use the hell out of the pass (probably most of the people on these forums) but the vast majority of them do not. Those are the folks that make the pass work. It's a numbers game.

    Familiarity Bias. We all think that skiers are like us. They are not. And that is why this model works.

  24. #3099
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    Quote Originally Posted by LesterSmoove View Post
    <snip> JHMR wanted to boost January travel a few years ago, so they used to have a deal where any season passholder could get 50% off window rate for most of January, and my understanding is that they still made more money per skier day doing stuff like that than they get from Ikon passholders. that deal also gave passholders an incentive to come during a time when the resort could handle more crowds, versus everybody from denver driving up all at once in February. that deal is gone now.
    Nope... not gone - just changed: https://www.jacksonhole.com/golden-ticket.html

  25. #3100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaaarrrp View Post
    Can we get confirmation that picture is from a weekend? Hope it's not actually a wednesday
    It doesn't matter... we've absolutely had that at Squaw on weekdays after a big storm.

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