Ikon Pass

**Smoova** · 03-12-2019, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by Core Shot

Wonder if they are looking for an exit strategy?

Wondering the same: pump EBITDA with IKON visits in preparation for the road show. The real tell would be delays in major scheduled maintenance, but that's tough to determine from outside.

**Whiteroom_Guardian** · 03-12-2019, 10:29 AM

I'm generalizing obviously.

Would I operate a ski area for 60k? No. If I had 300+ million in the bank would I wreck the hill for all the locals to make a few more dollars? I don't think so, but lots and lots of money can make people do some crazy shit.

**jtran10** · 03-12-2019, 12:33 PM

https://www.alta.com/blog/weighing-i...-pass-products

While skier visits to Alta show a double-digit increase over last season, we are currently only 6% ahead of the 16-17 ski season. Our day and multi-day ticket visits are down significantly this season due to the migration of many of our skiers to the Ikon Pass. Our net increase in skier visits from the Ikon Pass is currently running roughly 3%. Our largest increase in skier visits is coming from local pass holders whose visits are up 13% compared to the prior season.

**hafjell** · 03-12-2019, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Smoova

Wondering the same: pump EBITDA with IKON visits in preparation for the road show. The real tell would be delays in major scheduled maintenance, but that's tough to determine from outside.

Interesting. Are you sure they can hide the scheduled maintenance from serious buyers? You likely no more than I, but my understanding of the biz is that it’s connected and aware of what others are doing at an operational and facilities level. Witness the traffic in used lifts. Not arguing. Your thoughts on crushing visit numbers are important.

**MontuckyFried** · 03-12-2019, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

I think the problem at all these major resorts is that "survive" means bringing home duffel bags of cash every season. The owners of these big mega hills have their own lifestyles to maintain and you can't "survive" when the wife can't have her beachfront in Malibu and the bungalow in Curaçao.

And knowing some of the investors firsthand, I can tell you that you're 100% correct. They're not exactly ever hurting in reality. Even when times are "tough" I have yet to see any of them give much up if anything in their lifestyle aside from dumping a portion of their portfolio. OOOHHHHH THE HUMANITY! Won't SOMEBODY think of the children?! Might have to settle for the 150 footer instead of the 192' Perini Navi the kids wanted for their slip in Antigua. Poor, poor children. I weep for them. /s

**PNW_Skier206** · 03-12-2019, 01:49 PM

You guys do realize ownership of a resort is an investment and the owners expect a return on said investment? I’m not a fan of Ikon/epic but it is what it is and we need to accept it.

Many ski resorts lose a shit ton of money in a bad year. A couple bad snow years in a row can come close to bankrupting a mid size resort. I’ve seen finances first hand. Sure plenty of the owners are rich but if they aren’t making a return they will move their money elsewhere.

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**Kinnikinnick** · 03-12-2019, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Whiteroom_Guardian

wreck the hill for all the locals .

Define “wreck the hill for all the locals”

Not able to ski at all? Everything is always tracked out? All the lifts have 45 min lines?

Or

Wait a bit longer than you want in one line at the tram and get each other wrapped up in Pissy tizzy feedback loop about how it’s ruined!!!

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SB · 03-12-2019, 03:14 PM

I welcome our IKON overlords.

**Kinnikinnick** · 03-12-2019, 05:46 PM

Ikon pass conversation heard in Tramline.
Core Local: “Before Ikon ruined this place”
Milf with Ikon : “oh so you’re from here”
CL: “no, I’m from Minnesota”

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**Bunion 2020** · 03-12-2019, 07:27 PM

^^^^ Bwaaaah.

I have e-mailed our GM asking for some days at other IKON resorts as a part of the all access pass.

I don't think it is too much to ask.

Time will tell.

**TahoeJ** · 03-12-2019, 07:35 PM

Fucking developers and money guys have been lying to ski town locals for decades now, and somehow, still, some of you suckers drink that shit up like it's cold beer.

**Hott Butt Mud** · 03-12-2019, 08:03 PM

Would you guys rather have ski resorts close?
Cause that is what will happen to many resorts if they don't "team up" with others. It's reality.

You guys need to understand that the resort visitation numbers are going to be in a decline. Boomers are retiring (quickly) and increasingly becoming less likely to ski/board.

**Kopi_Red** · 03-12-2019, 08:07 PM

Ikonic post

**galibier_numero_un** · 03-12-2019, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Hott Butt Mud

Would you guys rather have ski resorts close?
Cause that is what will happen to many resorts if they don't "team up" with others. It's reality.

You guys need to understand that the resort visitation numbers are going to be in a decline. Boomers are retiring (quickly) and increasingly becoming less likely to ski/board.

^^^ this ^^^

**nest** · 03-12-2019, 11:17 PM

Originally Posted by Hott Butt Mud

Would you guys rather have ski resorts close?
Cause that is what will happen to many resorts if they don't "team up" with others. It's reality.
.

Bullshit

**LesterSmoove** · 03-12-2019, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kinnikinnick

Ikon pass conversation heard in Tramline.
Core Local: “Before Ikon ruined this place”
Milf with Ikon : “oh so you’re from here”
CL: “no, I’m from Minnesota”
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funny anecdote used to dismiss complaints of an entire community of longtime locals, recent transplants, wealthy retired skiing enthusiasts, and repeat customers. I'd love IKON too if I lived in CO and got to ski pow at JH and Alta/Snowbird for free while using IKON as a season pass for my home mountains. I'd definitely do a weekend or three at Aspen. Hell, maybe I'd do some summer skiing at mammoth. I wouldn't care about the unusual crowds if I was in that boat for only $900, but the pass is just too damn cheap, and JHMR doesn't have the infrastructure for the concentrated crowds that have developed as a result of this cheap pass product. Obviously the resort isn't literally ruined, and it's been a super fun season, but they took a good thing with steadily increasing visitation year after year in a premier resort and they trashed the product quality. Powder days have always been nuts, but these days have been even crazier, and it's the crowds on non-powder weekdays that really boggle the mind.

I retort with anecdotes about all the motel 6 staying, van camping, 20% ikon pass discount asking, go pro helmet mount wearing, no ski renting, backseat skiing, ACL popping, no money spending cheapskates who flooded this valley. I guess that's probably a misleading picture too.

**SuperGaper** · 03-12-2019, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by LesterSmoove

funny anecdote used to dismiss complaints of an entire community of longtime locals, recent transplants, wealthy retired skiing enthusiasts, and repeat customers. I'd love IKON too if I lived in CO and got to ski pow at JH and Alta/Snowbird for free while using IKON as a season pass for my home mountains. I'd definitely do a weekend or three at Aspen. Hell, maybe I'd do some summer skiing at mammoth. I wouldn't care about the unusual crowds if I was in that boat for only $900, but the pass is just too damn cheap, and JHMR doesn't have the infrastructure for the concentrated crowds that have developed as a result of this cheap pass product. Obviously the resort isn't literally ruined, and it's been a super fun season, but they took a good thing with steadily increasing visitation year after year in a premier resort and they trashed the product quality. Powder days have always been nuts, but these days have been even crazier, and it's the crowds on non-powder weekdays that really boggle the mind.

I retort with anecdotes about all the motel 6 staying, van camping, 20% ikon pass discount asking, go pro helmet mount wearing, no ski renting, backseat skiing, ACL popping, no money spending cheapskates who flooded this valley. I guess that's probably a misleading picture too.

Dude, how are you so good at reading my mind?! Front Range West or Beaterville Wyoming, thats what I call it now.

**Core Shot** · 03-13-2019, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by SuperGaper

Dude, how are you so good at reading my mind?! Front Range West or Beaterville Wyoming, thats what I call it now.

I prefer Jackson Hole Colorado

**MakersTeleMark** · 03-13-2019, 05:56 AM

https://coloradosun.com/2019/03/12/e...pen-telluride/

**Foggy_Goggles** · 03-13-2019, 06:10 AM

Us mountain town locals are becoming the whiny bitches that we are supposed to despise. We are part of the problem. There is probably some other forum where the goobs from Texas are complaining about the locals crowding the lift lines and ruining spring break.

Hi Blevins! You guys know the author of that article trolls TGR for content. Feel important because ya'll got your figure on the pulse of the future of skiing.

**Name Redacted** · 03-13-2019, 08:02 AM

So can these companies become "Too big to fail"? As in think about if Vail somehow had to claim bankruptcy and close down all of their resorts.

**Duffman** · 03-13-2019, 08:10 AM

I am kind of suspicious that all of the letters coming from ski area management sound eerily similar. Looks like Ikon PR department gave them talking points to use.

I would love to see the breakdown on where Ikon skiiers are traveling from to JH, Alta etc. And what kind of year over year increase it is. A fair amount of ECers (including myself) had the mountain collective for years ,but that probably didn't cause the noticable influx that Ikon has. And I suspect like mentioned above, a large percentage of the increase in volume is from CA and CO skiiers who basically bought their local mountains season pass that essentially had 5-7 freebie days thrown in at Alta/bird and Jackson, so.why not use them. And these are not the "destination skiiers" that the business model of a pass like this is targeting , in that they aren't spending buku cash locally on their big winter vacation .

Pure speculation on my part, but would love to see the stats

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**Bunion 2020** · 03-13-2019, 08:11 AM

^^^ all very relevant points.

**MontuckyFried** · 03-13-2019, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by shredgnar

So can these companies become "Too big to fail"?

You better believe it. Think about this. Many of the investors in these mega ski corps also had a part in some of the "too big to fail" outfits. These guys have pennies in lots of pots, so while I'm not calling them out individually, it's also likely they're not opposed to a tax funded bailout or three.