Raw Water

[plugboots]

Hmmmmmm, biofilm.

[cravenmorhead]

Yeah, sourcing and transporting clean water and moving wastewater away is the key to civilization, more than any other technological feat. Nobody who has spent a week shitting their guts out thanks to giardia or had their kid die of cholera is buying raw water. Basically, we've forgotten what the problem was, so now we're going to start tearing down the solutions.

[Dantheman]

Basically, we've forgotten what the problem was, so now we're going to start tearing down the solutions.

Raw water/anti-vaxxer Venn diagram:

[bobz]

http://monosar.org/safety_article_water_quality.html
The problem is that the study is 13 years old. There was a more limitied study in 2009 done along the Muir trail that showed higher levels of coliforms (Giardia not tested for) in areas accessible to pack animals.
I couldn't find more recent data searching the National Library of Medicine data base.

Interesting. Yeah, I wouldn't be doing the scoop'n'drink anywhere near or downstream of significant pack animal activity. Still, I see no reason to believe that it should be worse now than a decade or two ago. High Sierra backpacking and horse packing haven't gotten significantly more popular in recent years (dayhiking has). And the whole range got pretty well power-washed about a year ago.

Anyway, I'm no "raw water" nut; I'm happy to drink some of the world's most pristine water when I'm far enough out to enjoy it, and I'm happy to drink (mostly filtered) municipal tap water, too. Just saying, this isn't a digital kind of thing where water is either treated and 100% free of biological contaminants, or untreated and full of biological contaminants; water quality varies, and the degree of treatment is appropriate to the quality of the water. If someone wants to claim that some company's "raw water" is contaminated, then they need to test it and show that it's contaminated.

[Mazderati]

If someone wants to claim that some company's "raw water" is contaminated, then they need to test it and show that it's contaminated.

Should the onus of verified safety not be placed on the proprietor?

[Dantheman]

I'm inclined to agree with bobz in regards to backcountry water sources. If I'm high enough in a watershed (above all lakes, pack animals, grazing, camping areas, and especially above treeline) I drink water untreated almost on principle. If it's contaminated up there the world isn't worth living in any more.

[bobz]

Should the onus of verified safety not be placed on the proprietor?

Sure, it just about goes without saying that they do test the source, assuming that we're talking about significant businesses here and not some guy with a hose and a water truck. I'm referring to some of the alarmist articles I've seen, which simply run with the assumption that any untreated water must be contaminated, without ever showing that to be true of the products that they're talking about.

[summit]

You can theoretically get water source contamination in high alpine drainages without pack animals or humans.

Small rodents, beavers, felids and canids carry giardia in their feces. Presumably that means coyotes, bobcat, lynx, wolf, fox and mountain lions. It is rarer in ungulates (sheep, elk, goat, deer, moose) but theoretically possible (my brief reading indicates most of the research didn't differentiate between zoonotic and animal only strains of giardia). @hutash might be able to offer more clarity.

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/...code=wdas-site

Like old goat said, these contaminations can vary over the years, coming or going.

I'll ask my water environmental engineer, veterinary, and md/mph relatives and report back.

[flyandski365]

My bro is a water treatment engineer and knows more about this shit than anyone I know. We always treat our water in the backcountry.

But the raw water movement has more to do with tech dopes with more money than sense who've been so insulated from real-world problems they think it's a good idea to drink untreated water.

That Venn diagram is accurate.

[Thurgood Jenkins]

Right. Besides that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

except for giving us the notion that one society can rule the world... and clean water.

if Romans had Tevas, they would have conquered the whole world, not just the known world.

clean water comes close tho

[Tri-Ungulate]

Right. Besides that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Brought peace?

[dunfree]

You can theoretically get water source contamination in high alpine drainages without pack animals or humans.

Small rodents, beavers, felids and canids carry giardia in their feces. Presumably that means coyotes, bobcat, lynx, wolf, fox and mountain lions. It is rarer in ungulates (sheep, elk, goat, deer, moose) but theoretically possible (my brief reading indicates most of the research didn't differentiate between zoonotic and animal only strains of giardia). @hutash might be able to offer more clarity.

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/doi/pdf/...code=wdas-site

Like old goat said, these contaminations can vary over the years, coming or going.

I'll ask my water environmental engineer, veterinary, and md/mph relatives and report back.

It used to be called "beaver fever" for a reason.

There was a study - unsure if it's been discredited or not - which suggested that hard freezes in lakes killed off many parasites. This seems relevant to the High Sierra & BWCA. Another factor is of course human interaction & who the humans are. My remembrance is giardia got imported from Asia by trekkers.

[KQ]

Raw water/anti-vaxxer Venn diagram:

LOL!!

[old goat]

Interesting. Yeah, I wouldn't be doing the scoop'n'drink anywhere near or downstream of significant pack animal activity. Still, I see no reason to believe that it should be worse now than a decade or two ago. High Sierra backpacking and horse packing haven't gotten significantly more popular in recent years (dayhiking has). And the whole range got pretty well power-washed about a year ago.

Anyway, I'm no "raw water" nut; I'm happy to drink some of the world's most pristine water when I'm far enough out to enjoy it, and I'm happy to drink (mostly filtered) municipal tap water, too. Just saying, this isn't a digital kind of thing where water is either treated and 100% free of biological contaminants, or untreated and full of biological contaminants; water quality varies, and the degree of treatment is appropriate to the quality of the water. If someone wants to claim that some company's "raw water" is contaminated, then they need to test it and show that it's contaminated.

It's very possible that things are the same or better than they were in '04. It just would be nice to see the data. I use a protozoan filter and chlorine dioxide and drink immediately in camp, or boil of course. Up high I don't take the filter or tablets--I refill my bottles from any source that looks reasonable.

[wyeaster]

is raw water competing for market share with tb12 superwater?

[bagtagley]

Why are we talking about pristine mountain streams? You’re taking a massive leap of faith drinking a bottle of untreated water from a potentially unknown source. If the source is some tucked away high mountain stream, I’m even less inclined to support a business that tries to commercialize that.

I’ve never been shy about drinking water close to the source. However, I’ve learned that the feedback loop isn’t as immediate as I once assumed. Those kinds of choices don’t necessarily bite you in the ass within hours, or even weeks or months. And, there are fates worse than horrible diarrhea.

[cmcrawfo]

While dismissive of conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers, it turns out the TGR community has indeed been baddeling in the dark arts of RAW Water for years.

Question; do you feel more energized / invigorated / healthy after drinking from your high alpine Raw Water sources? maybe the tech hipsters are on to something.

[summit]

Question; do you feel more energized / invigorated / healthy after drinking from your high alpine Raw Water sources? maybe the tech hipsters are on to something.

Yes but it comes from the views and the hike, not the water.

[bobz]

You can theoretically get water source contamination in high alpine drainages without pack animals or humans.

Theoretically, you can get sick from low-concentration bio contamination in treated municipal water; zero-tolerance is the wrong model for understanding this stuff. If worried about theoretical contamination, there are orders of magnitude higher risks elsewhere, so maybe you should avoid all restaurant food (I don't) and all uncooked fresh produce (which remains very healthy for most people who don't have immunodeficient issues).

Anyway, I just saw this article in Slate today echoing what I said, which I realize isn't much more authoritative than I am (and yes, goat, more data would be nice), but it's a good counterpoint to the equally unauthoritative "untreated water omg that's very bad" articles that kicked off this discussion.

[iceman]

I drink raw water every day and have for about 30 years. However it comes out of a well instead of straight from a stream. The water's really good and we have tons of it - the well drillers couldn't get an accurate measure since it flowed too fast but it's over 30 gals./minute, they said we should go into business filling swimming pools but maybe we should put a bottling plant in instead.

[skaredshtles]

While dismissive of conspiracy theorists and anti-vaxxers, it turns out the TGR community has indeed been baddeling in the dark arts of RAW Water for years.

Is this some sort of Canuckistani word?

[Dantheman]

all uncooked fresh produce

A few years back I read an interview with the head of the CDC. One thing they asked him is if there were any foods he never eats out of food poisoning concerns. Bagged salad greens were at the top of his list.

[Soups]

A few years back I read an interview with the head of the CDC. One thing they asked him is if there were any foods he never eats out of food poisoning concerns. Bagged salad greens were at the top of his list.

Alfalfa sprouts

[bobz]

I use a protozoan filter and chlorine dioxide and drink immediately in camp, or boil of course. Up high I don't take the filter or tablets--I refill my bottles from any source that looks reasonable.

Cool. Personally, when I'm not using the good ol' rhythm method, I've come to appreciate the light weight and convenience of SteriPen. BTW, here's a fuel saving tip: While there are some pathogens that need more than just a little boiling, 50 degrees celsius kills giardia, which is only about 5 degrees C above some hot tubs I've sat in. I don't have a link for you; my research on this a couple decades ago included an article about giardia in JAMA, which is where I read that. Suffice to say, if it's hot enough to soften your ramen, don't worry about purifying.

(edit: an authoritative link, footnoted too, provided by Steve in another topic disagrees with my old JAMA source; giardia dies within a few minutes at a higher temp than 50C, but still well short of boiling. So if you're worried about giardia, which you shouldn't be all that much if you're in the Sierra and smart about choosing your source, your ramen and cocoa water is fine even if it doesn't boil.)