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  1. #1
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    CSI: Terrain Park. How did this FKS heel die?

    Tell me your CSI Theory about how this FKS heel died.

    THE CRIME SCENE:
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    - 1 FKS DIN=14 heel suffered catastrophic failure
    - Dildo still in retention position
    - The skier says he landed switch from a side-hit feature in the terrain park, shortly before he noticed his boot was swimming loosely in the broken binding heel piece, followed shortly thereafter by ski ejection. with dildo ending up in retention position.

    FORENSIC ANALYSIS:
    - Bindings set to DIN=7.75
    - Right-side arm was unknowingly adjusted to be 3mm longer than the left arm.
    - Right-side arm was ripped-out on right side of pivoting metal disc. Pretty much zero bending of that metal—it was all cracking or tearing.
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    - Plastic baseplate has some missing plastic on same right side. This results in a void underneath the outside section of the pivoting metal disc, instead of the plastic being there to partially support the pivoting metal disc above it.
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    - The brake arm on same right side was merely SLIGHTLY bent out of place---not a big bend at all.
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    ONE CSI THEORY: Is it right or wrong?
    - The 3mm arm-length difference had nothing to do with it.
    - Before this incident, perhaps the plastic was not broken yet and the brake was not bent yet.
    - The switch landing involved heel rise up into the designed elastic travel range of the binding heel, which caused brake to deploy partway.
    - Then the partway deployed brake arm snagged on firm snow while riding switch out of a switch landing.
    - And the snagged metal brake arm was forced upward into the plastic (breaking part of the plastic off).
    - And then the snagged brake arm was forced further upward until it collided with the pivoting metal disc, and the collision forced the pivoting metal disc's right arm to break off. This theory says the brake arm PUSHED into the broken metal disc---NOT that the metal disc arm PULLED out.
    - Finally, the dildo returned to its retention position, by design with its big elastic travel range.

    Is that how this catastrophic failure happened?

    EPILOGUE:
    Everything has been repaired, using spare parts for pivoting metal disc & plastic AFD, and bending the brake arm back into proper position.

    .
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post

    ONE CSI THEORY: Is it right or wrong?
    - The 3mm arm-length difference had nothing to do with it.
    Wrong.

    Your statements below prove that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post

    FORENSIC ANALYSIS:
    - Right-side arm was unknowingly adjusted to be 3mm longer than the left arm.
    - Right-side arm was ripped-out on right side of pivoting metal disc. Pretty much zero bending of that metal—it was all cracking or tearing.

    .

  3. #3
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    Mismatch in arm length irrelevant.

    Agree that the brake snagging when switch was the cause. I do a lot of work for the GB freestyle & mogul team members and have seen this a few times. One of the problem with the Pivot heel is the poorly retracting brakes captive brakes meaning they snag earlier than other makes/models and the load on the brake lever is then passed directly to the heel unit. The same thing happens with Head/Tyrolia heels as the brake screws are also the front heel mounting screws so they get all the load and can pull-out or bend the base plate. On a Sallie/Marker/Vist the brake lever will just bend/break/snap but the heel unit/mount will usually be fine.

  4. #4
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    Answer: no heelpiece in existence is designed to withstand the forces sustained in continued impacts from switch landings, or even with those forces in mind.

    Landing switch is the Achilles heel (get it?) of every alpine binding on the market. As stated, the brake on the pivot heel is captured within the frame, so every time a skier lands switch and the brake arm drags, that force is directed in to the frame of the heelpiece. Which side it snaps on, from what I’ve seen, has more to do with which side the skier prefers to spin to. I’ve seen a few of our park rats around here break the same side on the same foot multiple times.

    Every twintip I mount, I bend the brake arms up a bit to help mitigate this. But if you watch kids landing switch, their weight is almost always way out over the tips on impact and through the run out. So elastic travel gets gobbled up, the brake arms drag, the heel blows up, and a demographic with a relatively large amount of disposable income or access to Mom and dad’s card buys a new binder. It’s the circle of life.



    TL;DR: it’s because he kicks his binding off with his other ski instead of using his pole like a civilized human being. Fucking troglodytes.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX View Post
    a demographic with a relatively large amount of disposable income or access to Mom and dad’s card
    no way man park skiers are from tha fuckin street

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  6. #6
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    Metal fatigue.

    Somebody doesn't know how to keep their feet apart when they ski.

    Repeated hits of opposite ski to the binding arm/half-moon interface.

    Look at the binding. It's shredded all up and down that side. Constant clipping, banging, and landing on side of the binding puts a lot of stress on the right angled piece of metal, just below the rivet.

    Teach jibby mcjibberson to keep his/her feet apart when skiing or use a pole to exit their bindings, at least until they get all their shit for free.

    Last edited by reckless toboggan; 01-17-2018 at 09:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    the situation strikes me as WAY too much drama at this point

  7. #7
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    That wear looks to me like he always steps his right ski on the left ski's dildo first to take his skis off, not that they bang together a lot. My money is on the other dildo having the same wear pattern on the right side.

    Switch landing brake theory has legs. I've bent a number of brakes as well as completely ripped off a heel piece landing switch hard.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    Repeated hits of opposite ski to the binding arm/half-moon interface.

    Look at the binding. It's shredded all up and down that side.
    I was just kidding about that last part in my previous post. Using your ski to step out of the binding isn’t the culprit here, these breaks almost always happen on switch landings.

    A big part of the problem with pivots in particular, as spyderjon mentioned, is that the treadle is so close to the brake pivot (meaning the boot has to move less distance off the ski to cause the brake to drag) as compared to an STH or jester or aaattack.

    I’ve been trying to think of a better brake for years to solve this problem, but with pivots you would have to completely move the brake outside of the heel piece. Marker did this with the old (80’s) MRR turntable, in which the brake was attached behind the mounting plate with the screws in it, and the turntable spun underneath it. There was a limited range of motion, because the turntable couldn’t spin all the way around without hitting the brake, but it doesn’t need to. It only needs to move far enough to allow the toe to release, which is dependent on the boot sole length and the toe piece design. Look could incorporate this idea, making the treadle arm longer and reducing the likelihood of the brake arm dragging when landing switch, and making the brake replaceable, which would be a boon for every pivot user whether they jib or not. They’d just have to redesign the forward pressure indicator and the base plate of the heel on a binding that they already discontinued once. Easy, right?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX View Post
    Which side it snaps on, from what I’ve seen, has more to do with which side the skier prefers to spin to.
    Quote Originally Posted by reckless toboggan View Post
    Metal fatigue.

    Look at the binding. It's shredded all up and down that side. Constant clipping, banging, and landing on side of the binding puts a lot of stress on the right angled piece of metal, just below the rivet.
    +1

    the skier likely consistently lands in such a way (switch or not) that the majority of the forces/load during the impact of his landings were always absorbed by the failed side, resulting in metal fatigue in the areas where it failed, specifically under the rivet.


    Not sure I buy the dragging brake theory, looks like the failure tore the metal down (landing forces) not up (dragging brake theory) hard to tell from picture. I figure the tare started on the rearmost side and worked its way forward, metal looks torn down to me.

    Possible solution to increase life of binders, switch left and right ski every other day on snow.

  10. #10
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    Great info guys. I feel like I know a ton about Salomon bindings, but for FKS I just guess about stuff I don't really know.

    Quote Originally Posted by M_R View Post
    ...
    Not sure I buy the dragging brake theory, looks like the failure tore the metal down (landing forces) not up (dragging brake theory) hard to tell from picture. I figure the tare started on the rearmost side and worked its way forward, metal looks torn down to me...
    Not sure whether the following clarification supports or challenges your opinion of downward tearing, but... For the photo of the pivoting metal disc and it's detached arm...that part was placed upside-down on the floor for the photo. So, you're looking at it's bottom face.

    .
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  11. #11
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    I had this same thing happen on my P18s today. Mine definitely doesn't have to do with switch landings as if that happens its generally an accident.

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    Glad to see I can readily buy new baseplates. Shit like this makes me nervous about breaking things though. Thankfully this didn't happen in dicey terrain.

  12. #12
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    That new case looks like:
    - same broken metal disc
    - baseplate plastic still looks perfect (not partially cracked off)
    - the 2 arms are adjusted to significantly different lengths. Hmmmmmmmm..... (well, maybe the broken arm spun itself after it broke...)

    .
    - TRADE your heavy PROTESTS for my lightweight version at this thread

    "My biggest goal in life has always been to pursue passion and to make dreams a reality. I love my daughter, but if I had to quit my passions for her, then I would be setting the wrong example for her, and I would not be myself anymore. " -Shane

    "I'm gonna go SO OFF that NO ONE's ever gonna see what I'm gonna do!" -Saucerboy

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post
    That new case looks like:
    - same broken metal disc
    - baseplate plastic still looks perfect (not partially cracked off)
    - the 2 arms are adjusted to significantly different lengths. Hmmmmmmmm..... (well, maybe the broken arm spun itself after it broke...)

    .
    Yup. No broken plastic. Arm lengths were equal before the incident, I fiddled with it afterwards to see if the threads got damaged from the force.

  14. #14
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    "One of the problem with the Pivot heel is the poorly retracting brakes captive brakes meaning they snag earlier than other makes/models"
    NO. The problem is people (coaches and athletes) dicking with the bindings so the brakes aren't retracting properly. Every brand loses brakes from switch landings all the time. A function of binding elasticity of which the pivot still has the most is as the heel open the brakes start to extend and then they catch in the snow. Of course as the best freestyle/freeride binding ever invented you may see more weird brake issues because anyone worth their salt and lots that aren't are skiing it.
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?
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  15. #15
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Bump, so as to not thread drift the EC thread. Inspected 6 sets of pivots last night and found one with a broken base ring. I have no idea how long it had been like that. I have to of skied on it a few times, and didn't die. I am not park rat nor do I stomp on the dildo with a ski to release. Disclaimer, this particular set are my oldest, 15 years?? and have been on at least three different skis. I am no mechanical engineer, but it looks like a weak spot right there as there seems to be two different metal thicknesses. The base ring being thinner than the 90 degree side wing where the arms connect to. Whatever..shit breaks. I'll never not be a pivot fanboy.

  16. #16
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    You’ll notice all the failures start at the front edge of the bent up tab that the brake arm is riveted to. During my time at a ski shop we replaced quite a few of these ranging from just starting to crack to fully failed. It seems that the old style black metal base plates were more durable but this may just be because all of those that we’re going to break already did.

    My theory is that the manufacturing process of that tab getting bent causes micro cracks in the metal, cyclical loading then causes that crack to propagate until it reached critical size or sees a critical load and either fails in one swift hit or begins to seperate until someone notices. Basically what I’m saying is check your pivots, I’ve had to replace p12s for small kids and p18s being run at 15 din, doesn’t seem to really matter what bindings or who is riding it just luck of the draw on wether the cracks will develop.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZomblibulaX View Post
    TL;DR: it’s because he kicks his binding off with his other ski instead of using his pole like a civilized human being. Fucking troglodytes.
    as this has been resurrected I had to come back and quote this...
    what's orange and looks good on hippies?
    fire

    rails are for trains
    If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for problems caused by the government I'd be a rich fat film maker in a baseball hat.

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  18. #18
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    accept that everything breaks even Pivots and you should check your gear so you at least don't have a malfunction landing switch or whatever

    I have a theory that a LOT of ski/bike gear breaks cuz half the screws are loose but i don't see where that might apply to this design
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by madriverfreeride View Post
    You’ll notice all the failures start at the front edge of the bent up tab that the brake arm is riveted to. During my time at a ski shop we replaced quite a few of these ranging from just starting to crack to fully failed. It seems that the old style black metal base plates were more durable but this may just be because all of those that we’re going to break already did.

    My theory is that the manufacturing process of that tab getting bent causes micro cracks in the metal, cyclical loading then causes that crack to propagate until it reached critical size or sees a critical load and either fails in one swift hit or begins to seperate until someone notices. Basically what I’m saying is check your pivots, I’ve had to replace p12s for small kids and p18s being run at 15 din, doesn’t seem to really matter what bindings or who is riding it just luck of the draw on wether the cracks will develop.
    Solid post, I agree with your theory.

    And XXX-er is right. Check your gear over once in a while, you can spot problems before they leave you stranded or hurt you. The broken baseplate I posted earlier in this thread had roughly 150 days on it and when I looked the 3 other spots on that set of bindings had stress cracks as well. I've started checking my binding screws and baseplates regularly for piece of mind.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowaddict91 View Post
    I had this same thing happen on my P18s today. Mine definitely doesn't have to do with switch landings as if that happens its generally an accident.

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    Glad to see I can readily buy new baseplates. Shit like this makes me nervous about breaking things though. Thankfully this didn't happen in dicey terrain.
    Was wondering if you would chime in. Is that the mate to ski in the photo? Looking pretty hardcore underneath there. Yup shit does break and needs to be checked. Thankfully it's pretty rare these days, at least resort setups, unlike the early days of tele where shit broke all the time.

  21. #21
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    In a modern ski binding the toe piece normaly takes all the pressure of forward hits yada fucking yada and it is designed to do so, all that heel piece is expecting to do is hold up the dildo really and mebe impose a little bit of forward presssure

    but a park skier is going totally fucking 180 degrees in the opposite direction so looking at the picts and considering what a park skier does to a binding it strikes me that landing backwards is causing the heelpiece to take them backward forces which the toe piece used to take ... maybe why it breaks ??

    so make it stronger

    or quit skiing backwards

    I have been schooling all the old fucks at the hill " dude don't say backwards, say switch ... you sound like an old fuck "
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  22. #22
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    Or the baseplates are made at the Chongquing Iron and Steel Co.
    "timberridge is terminally vapid" -- a fortune cookie in Yueyang

  23. #23
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    This problem with look turntables breaking predates skiing backwards. Saw plenty in my day and I haven't worked in a ski shop in 22yrs

  24. #24
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    nobody believes that shit made in china is better or worse than shit made in America enymore

    now if you were to discuss the balance of trade of trade

    or that jesus loves you more

    that might have traction eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuco View Post
    This problem with look turntables breaking predates skiing backwards. Saw plenty in my day and I haven't worked in a ski shop in 22yrs
    maybe now park skiers break more look turntables than other brands ?

    maybe jesus doesnt love park skiers ?


    and BTW dude "switch" is the correct nomenclature
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

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