Bevel Angles for Shit Conditions

[Like a Boss]

I'm in CO. We are fucked. Stale manmade hardpack everywhere. What base and side angles will put an edge into afternoon boilerplate hardpack? We're talking about stuff that's the consistency of a park box here. I'm tired of doing shitty pivot slips around the mountain in the afternoon. Currently on a standard 2&1 from a decent shop. Help!

[Alpinord]

Changing side edge angles back and forth is easy enough. I've been enjoying the extra grip of a 4° on my carvers.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I'm in CO. We are fucked. Stale manmade hardpack everywhere. What base and side angles will put an edge into afternoon boilerplate hardpack? We're talking about stuff that's the consistency of a park box here. I'm tired of doing shitty pivot slips around the mountain in the afternoon. Currently on a standard 2&1 from a decent shop. Help!

What skis? Get some decent piste skis, Super Shapes, Speed Course, etc...

[Like a Boss]

Changing side edge angles back and forth is easy enough. I've been enjoying the extra grip of a 4° on my carvers.

1* Base then?

[Alpinord]

1* Base then?

Try side edges first to see if more grip helps.

Base bevels have more to do with how quick you get on an edge vs grip. To reduce the base bevel to test or to change back after it is increased requires a base grind.


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[galibier_numero_un]

Speaking of base bevels, I just went through my quiver over the weekend. What else is there to do with the current conditions?

My SVST "The Final Cut" 1 degree base bevel puts the angle into about 4 to 4.5mm of bottom surface before it stops taking off material. IOW, it bevels past the edge by 2 to 2.5mm. Is this about right?

On a side note, it appears that as the Delrin fitting wears (which it doesn't appear to be doing), you'd get less bevel angle and possibly go less into the p-tex.

... Thom

[ZomblibulaX]

IMO, if a 3/1 can't get it done for recreational skiing, you're on the wrong ski. More side angle is pretty fun to ski on, but decreased durability makes for diminishing returns when you start getting in to world cup bevels. Increasing side bevel makes the edge more acute = better grip, but that's dependent on the condition of your base edge. I.E., if your base edge is rocked or rounded (and I mean from overfiling or bending the file, not just sliding rails and skiing to the car) increasing your side edge bevel yields nominal results. The key to good grip on hardpack is consistency, meaning not only sharp but smooth and even.

Galibier, you need to stop filing before you start cutting in to the base. Mark the edge with a sharpie; when the sharpie mark is gone you're done. It takes a lot less strokes than you think to set a bevel from zero. We are after all talking about fractions of a degree over a span of a couple millimeters here. As the feet wear on your guide, its increasing your bevel as the outside guide drops lower, and leads to flexing the file as you're trying to make the guides and the file match up when the outside guide is sitting farther below the edge. Also, if you're cutting in to the base that much, you might be pressuring the file in between the guides and bending it. Try controlling downward pressure with two fingers, one over the inside guide and one directly over the outside guide. A little block of wood on top of the file can help distribute pressure too; svst sells them on their site.

[Alpinord]

^^^^
Good points. Once the base edge geometry is established, most of your edge sharpening should occur on the side edge with only deburring with a stone or diamond on the base edge NOT more cutting.

Thom, we have some replacement feet and blocks for the TFC. You could probably make a block with your skill set.

PSA, don't forget that side wall removal may be required for more acute side edge angles.

FWIW, here are supposedly WC bevels:

[galibier_numero_un]

Galibier, you need to stop filing before you start cutting in to the base. Mark the edge with a sharpie; when the sharpie mark is gone you're done. It takes a lot less strokes than you think to set a bevel from zero. We are after all talking about fractions of a degree over a span of a couple millimeters here. As the feet wear on your guide, its increasing your bevel as the outside guide drops lower, and leads to flexing the file as you're trying to make the guides and the file match up when the outside guide is sitting farther below the edge. Also, if you're cutting in to the base that much, you might be pressuring the file in between the guides and bending it. Try controlling downward pressure with two fingers, one over the inside guide and one directly over the outside guide. A little block of wood on top of the file can help distribute pressure too; svst sells them on their site.

Thanks! I actually used a Sharpie, and silly me, I didn't trust it. I never should have looked at the SVST video. I didn't trust my instincts.

After waking up to a fresh cup, I realized that I had it reversed. Of course, as the guide wears, you'd increase the bevel (not decrease). Doh!

I'm real good at applying thumb pressure, but thanks for pointing it out.

Terry, while the guide doesn't appear to be worn, it wouldn't hurt to pick up a replacement. I'll check in with you.

... Thom

[wyeaster]

^^^^
Good points. Once the base edge geometry is established, most of your edge sharpening should occur on the side edge with only deburring with a stone or diamond on the base edge NOT more cutting.

Thom, we have some replacement feet and blocks for the TFC. You could probably make a block with your skill set.

PSA, don't forget that side wall removal may be required for more acute side edge angles.

FWIW, here are supposedly WC bevels:

thanks for the graphic!

[skizix]

Another thing you may want to try is: ski a-basin.

They make very little snow (thank you a-basin), the slopes get little sun this time of year (Pali was in the shade all day), and high altitude keeps things cool. As a result, as of New Year's Day at least, there was no refrozen melt and no boilerplate. Just packed powder and highly edge-able chalk. Well, that and rocks (mostly: bottom of Pali, and Exhibition - the latter of which is rocky pretty much all season, right now it is a freaking mine field, yet open).

But hey, I've always said: I'd rather hit rocks than ski manmade snow.

For the most part, what's open (pretty much all of front side, minus Alleys and East Wall - East Wall is looking grim, so sad) has good coverage. I mean, far, far from primo, obviously, but better than most right now.

[anotherVTskibum]

I'm generally happy with a 2'/1' tune on most skis and a 3'/1' tune on race skis, FWIW.

On truly hard snow, it doesn't take much for that 3'/1' tune to start feeling dull; two full days is about max, and that's on on only moderately firm snow (low water content/not much manmade) and without high-speed lifts. Throw in a bunch of manmade, high-speed lifts, and/or a fair amount of sideslipping (like when I was living at Killington) and I could easily feel like my skis were dull after only one day of skiing—they'd still grip on most surfaces, but they were a lot less tolerant of any sloppiness in application.

IMO, on anything short of a polished manmade surface (or a post-thaw-and-freeze cycle), 2'/1' on a reasonable ski is workable. If you don't have carving skis, look for used race skis—they tend to depreciate very quickly, and the changing FIS and USSA regulations don't much matter unless you're actually racing on them. I'd try to stay away from 35m-radius FIS-legal GS skis, though, unless you really like going fast.

[Spyderjon]

I'm generally happy with a 2'/1' tune on most skis.......

Just to be pedantic but the correct nomenclure for quoting ski edge angles is base edge first then side edge, so that should be 1,2

[wyeaster]

i love pedantry

[Like a Boss]

Thanks for all the info guys, good stuff. Ski in question is the Nordica 80ti, so reasonably carvy. I have skied them with a .5 and 2 in past seasons and they railed firm groomers but the snow was probably better and they hated to be skidded in places like bumps and trees and stuff. 1 and 2 so far this season, maybe a 1 and 3 should be the next move if the drought continues?

[skizix]

Thanks for all the info guys, good stuff. Ski in question is the Nordica 80ti, so reasonably carvy. I have skied them with a .5 and 2 in past seasons and they railed firm groomers but the snow was probably better and they hated to be skidded in places like bumps and trees and stuff. 1 and 2 so far this season, maybe a 1 and 3 should be the next move if the drought continues?

IMO: 1 and 2. 1 and 1 if it gets plump. 1 and 3 only if you like tuning your skis a lot more often than I do (mine are generally dull as fuck, my strategy being: try to ski where it doesn't matter - not working out so well so far this CO season).

If the drought continues like it has so far...dust off the golf clubs.

[Like a Boss]

IMO: 1 and 2. 1 and 1 if it gets plump. 1 and 3 only if you like tuning your skis a lot more often than I do (mine are generally dull as fuck, my strategy being: try to ski where it doesn't matter - not working out so well so far this CO season).

If the drought continues like it has so far...dust off the golf clubs.

True dat. It's shaping up to be an epic January golf season in Denver/Junction at this rate.

Problem for me is my occupation requires me to ski well into the afternoon. Otherwise I would roll with a 1 and 2 and just bounce when it gets really shitty. The 1 and 2 does fine until the early afternoon. I think I'll put a 1 and 3 into one of my setups and see how it does, maybe swap midday to spread out the wear.

[Alpinord]

True dat. It's shaping up to be an epic January golf season in Denver/Junction at this rate.

Problem for me is my occupation requires me to ski well into the afternoon. Otherwise I would roll with a 1 and 2 and just bounce when it gets really shitty. The 1 and 2 does fine until the early afternoon. I think I'll put a 1 and 3 into one of my setups and see how it does, maybe swap midday to spread out the wear.

To really feel the difference between side bevels, I set a 2° on inside edges and a 3° on the outside edges on a pair of skis. Then skied the same run multiple times on the 2° then swapped skis so the 3° was on the inside. Then skied the same run again multiple times. I tried it again with difference snow conditions and then matched the bevel angles. It was pretty telling.

[old goat]

To really feel the difference between side bevels, I set a 2° on inside edges and a 3° on the outside edges on a pair of skis. Then skied the same run multiple times on the 2° then swapped skis so the 3° was on the inside. Then skied the same run again multiple times. I tried it again with difference snow conditions and then matched the bevel angles. It was pretty telling.

telling what?

[Alpinord]

telling what?

Immediate feedback on the differences between two side bevel angles.

In my case, this was on some old Legends. The 2deg edges had good grip, but feathering into turns was smoother than the more abrupt grip of the 3deg edges with the same pressure.


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[jckstein]

Another thing you may want to try is: ski a-basin.

They make very little snow (thank you a-basin), the slopes get little sun this time of year (Pali was in the shade all day), and high altitude keeps things cool. As a result, as of New Year's Day at least, there was no refrozen melt and no boilerplate. Just packed powder and highly edge-able chalk. Well, that and rocks (mostly: bottom of Pali, and Exhibition - the latter of which is rocky pretty much all season, right now it is a freaking mine field, yet open).

But hey, I've always said: I'd rather hit rocks than ski manmade snow.

For the most part, what's open (pretty much all of front side, minus Alleys and East Wall - East Wall is looking grim, so sad) has good coverage. I mean, far, far from primo, obviously, but better than most right now.

Funny you say this because as I was reading down the thread, I was thinking the same exact thing. A-bay skied great last saturday and I have noooooo idea what my edge bevel is at. My skis are grey if that helps.

[Bushwacka]

hard snow .5/3 really will not matter in softer snow. The thing is a 1 degree base bevel on hard snow quickly becomes a 1.25 - 1.5 after a couple months of skiing.

[MTT]

I have my high end ski's @ .5 or .7 and 2 It works for me. I like the edge to engage quick when I think I might start turning. .5 will set and edge in hard conditions with very little angle. Skis might also chatter and buck if you don't have good edge control skills

194 LP .7 and 2
196 Lhasa .5 2
186 Lhasa 1 2


Some people find this unruly.

[skiJ]

IMO, if a 3/1 can't get it done for recreational skiing, you're on the wrong ski. More side angle is pretty fun to ski on, but decreased durability makes for diminishing returns when you start getting in to world cup bevels. Increasing side bevel makes the edge more acute = better grip, but that's dependent on the condition of your base edge. I.E., if your base edge is rocked or rounded (and I mean from overfiling or bending the file, not just sliding rails and skiing to the car) increasing your side edge bevel yields nominal results. The key to good grip on hardpack is consistency, meaning not only sharp but smooth and even.

Galibier, you need to stop filing before you start cutting in to the base. Mark the edge with a sharpie; when the sharpie mark is gone you're done. It takes a lot less strokes than you think to set a bevel from zero. We are after all talking about fractions of a degree over a span of a couple millimeters here. As the feet wear on your guide, its increasing your bevel as the outside guide drops lower, and leads to flexing the file as you're trying to make the guides and the file match up when the outside guide is sitting farther below the edge. Also, if you're cutting in to the base that much, you might be pressuring the file in between the guides and bending it. Try controlling downward pressure with two fingers, one over the inside guide and one directly over the outside guide. A little block of wood on top of the file can help distribute pressure too; svst sells them on their site.

excellent info. - Thank you... tj

[old goat]

Immediate feedback on the differences between two side bevel angles.

In my case, this was on some old Legends. The 2deg edges had good grip, but feathering into turns was smoother than the more abrupt grip of the 3deg edges with the same pressure.


Sent via iPhone
Slidewright.com

thanks for clarifying.

AFAIC and as others have said the number one rule for edge tuning is to leave the base edge alone once it's set, whether set in the shop or at home from a completely flat base. Except for deburring of course. Seems obvious but I run into a lot of people who don't know that (like me back in the day). That matters a lot more than what the side edge angle is.