Edges High? How much is too much

[doebedoe]

Wow. Wouldn't have expected that from Praxis. I'd be reaching out to them before just grinding away -- at home or in a shop.

[N1CK.]

@Alpinord : since we've drifted a little bit ... how often is restructuring needed? I mean, I have some skis that are years old and have skied/waxed/stored over and over, but I've never done anything re: structure.

I've sent you a note through your site, but if you'd care to share some thoughts here that would be cool. I'm guessing I'm not the only one with questions.

[jackstraw]

Wow. Wouldn't have expected that from Praxis. I'd be reaching out to them before just grinding away -- at home or in a shop.

^this.

The good thing with Praxis is their edge material is thick. So shaving the shit out of it isn't an issue. You'll want new skis before you wear the edge down from tuning.

[Alpinord]

@Alpinord : since we've drifted a little bit ... how often is restructuring needed? I mean, I have some skis that are years old and have skied/waxed/stored over and over, but I've never done anything re: structure.

I've sent you a note through your site, but if you'd care to share some thoughts here that would be cool. I'm guessing I'm not the only one with questions.

IMO, the short answer is when they need it. Some do it every season, regardless. (For those that do it early season, I suggest holding off until after you get good snow coverage and are done with base repairs.)

Generally, mirror smooth bases create suction/drag, especially as the snow gets wetter. Increasing the coarseness of the structure for spring skiing makes a big difference IME. Sometimes, more so than waxing. When the snow is colder, a finer structure typically is better due to drag caused by the snow crystals. (One cheat here is using super hard green wax and not fully brush it out of the coarser structure.) Most don't want to deal with changing structures, so a 'middle of the road' structure works well enough for most.

So, if your bases have little or no structure (aka texture), you might consider adding some. But if they are gliding well, it may not be necessary. One trade off of a grind is you lose the 'wax seasoning' you have built up over time. An advantage of the Ski Visions Base Flattener and structuring tool is you can micro manage how much of the base and wax you remove. Also, it can be used quickly and at your convenience as weather/conditions change. Some argue the planer's linear pattern affects turning vs a machined pattern. I have not had an issue here, but YMMV.

[doebedoe]

Any idea when you'll get more ski base flatteners back in stock @Alpinlord.

[Alpinord]

Any idea when you'll get more ski base flatteners back in stock @Alpinord.

There's one here (might be shown out of stock due to someone else having it in their cart). More are expected in the next day or two.

[skiing-in-jackson]

Thanks for the clarification- I had my terms confused.

Still a great tool.

[3PinGrin]

Never and I mean never, ski, skis out of the wrapper. Always grind first. Nothing comes out of factory flat. Not even Stockli. The worst I've ever seen are PM gear, woof.
So base high, like five degrees of base bevel. Salomon is known for their railed skis. All skis need some love. Never ski them out of the plastic!

Pffftt..... that's ridiculous. Collect data, then proceed accordingly.

[HAB]

Digging up an old thread – had a pair of my skis base ground to flatten them out after fixing an edge compression, and the shop railed one of them pretty significantly. I'll see what they say, but anybody have a shop in Seattle they'd recommend to fix it?

Or alternately, tips for doing it myself? I've got some tuning tools and can generally do a decent job touching those up, but I haven't tried to flatten out a railed ski like this before.

[Muggydude]

I’d ask for a refund. I’d say have them fix it for free but if they messed up once who’s to say if they wouldn’t again. Grinds aren’t really something you can do yourself.

As a side note in response to my original post a couple years ago- I got the Qs and protests very lightly ground and they were awesome.

I’ve since talked with Keith about it, when I first got my Praxis Lhasas and piste jibs I did the true bar test and both seemed slightly railed as well (similar to the pictures, little better maybe). Keith’s comment was that light will shine under the true bar with even the smallest gap (.05mm even) and make the ski look a lot more railed than it is. A good test to see if the ski is truly railed is to try and slide a piece of printer paper underneath the middle of the bar. If you cannot slide the paper freely under, that means it’s less than about .1mm edge high which really won’t affect the ski’s performance.

After verifying the bases weren’t actually railed via the paper test and skiing both the piste jibs and Lhasas, I can confirm they both skied great and did not ski railed at all. Even just skiing on the skis for a few days when they’re new can kind of break them in and you may find the bases are flatter after doing that.


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[bodywhomper]

Skivision hand tools can help flatten a ski.

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[noslow]

Digging up an old thread – had a pair of my skis base ground to flatten them out after fixing an edge compression, and the shop railed one of them pretty significantly. I'll see what they say, but anybody have a shop in Seattle they'd recommend to fix it?

Or alternately, tips for doing it myself? I've got some tuning tools and can generally do a decent job touching those up, but I haven't tried to flatten out a railed ski like this before.

Did a quick Seattle Search and World Cup service center are legit. Highly recommended by reviews and you can tell by their descriptions and equipment they know how to tune a ski.

Think your issue is that you got a free hand belt grind on the repaired area and possibly on the whole ski that’s railed. A shop should then be running the skis through an automated stone grinder to flatten the skis and perfect the rough belt work, then do passes on the stone with structure.

I never let belts touch my skis and many people interchange “base grind” with “stone grinds” which is the issue in many cases. Some places don’t even have stone grinders but can will sandpaper belt your bases if you ask for a “base grind”. Asking for a “Stone Grind” only will eliminate places that don’t have them and will guarantee the final steps go
through an automated stone grinding machine so you’re more likely to get better results.

Get a stone grind with a universal structure to fix the base flatness and then you can set the edge angles and wax the bases yourself at home. $25 job at most places.

[tuco]

^^^you do realize that before your skis ever touch a stone they are ran on a belt to remove burrs and put a bevel on the edges. Sparks from edges on stone are no bueno.

[noslow]

^^^you do realize that before your skis ever touch a stone they are ran on a belt to remove burrs and put a bevel on the edges. Sparks from edges on stone are no bueno.

Correct, edges are always checked for damage, burrs, rust etc and the edge bevels set on the edge grinder if desired before stone grind.
Mine skis are burr/rust free and edges set beforehand. Mine only get passes on a stone in the pre-grind stage to flatten and then structure passes. Then I re-set edges, brass/hard brush bases, fiberex, hot scrape and hot wax them myself.

[Alpinord]

Digging up an old thread – had a pair of my skis base ground to flatten them out after fixing an edge compression, and the shop railed one of them pretty significantly. I'll see what they say, but anybody have a shop in Seattle they'd recommend to fix it?

Or alternately, tips for doing it myself? I've got some tuning tools and can generally do a decent job touching those up, but I haven't tried to flatten out a railed ski like this before.

Bummer. Depending on the ski and snow firmness, IMO a dead flat ski may not ski differently than one less than perfect. IE, Powder obviously doesn't matter vs narrow race skis on bullet proof snow. That said, on the DIY front, if you can flatten the high edge and base area at least a couple/few cm's, you might not notice a performance issue and get on with your life. You can always do more if it's TRULY not enough. But focusing on dead flat only may require too much edge and base removal to get there, creating other issues.

A radial/panzer body file, crosscut file and/or Ski Visions Base Flattener (steel blade) all will knock down the edge and base material. Reset the base edge geometry before using the base structuring stones.

Edit: I get a lot of questions asking about the Ski Visions File Flattening tool which would be perfect for this situation. I still have not heard whether a replacement crosscut file has been found yet or not or if these will become available again. It is basically the same body as the Ski Base Flattener and Structuring tool, but has a magnet, along with a 'file stop', diagonally along the bottom. @HAB, with your milling skills, a bar mounted and 'plate', in the base flattener might be worth considering. If inclined, I can draw up an 'accessory' based on the dimensions.

[HAB]

Bummer. Depending on the ski and snow firmness, IMO a dead flat ski may not ski differently than one less than perfect. IE, Powder obviously doesn't matter vs narrow race skis on bullet proof snow. That said, on the DIY front, if you can flatten the high edge and base area at least a couple/few cm's, you might not notice a performance issue and get on with your life. You can always do more if it's TRULY not enough. But focusing on dead flat only may require too much edge and base removal to get there, creating other issues.

A radial/panzer body file, crosscut file and/or Ski Visions Base Flattener (steel blade) all will knock down the edge and base material. Reset the base edge geometry before using the base structuring stones.

Edit: I get a lot of questions asking about the Ski Visions File Flattening tool which would be perfect for this situation. I still have not heard whether a replacement crosscut file has been found yet or not or if these will become available again. It is basically the same body as the Ski Base Flattener and Structuring tool, but has a magnet, along with a 'file stop', diagonally along the bottom. @HAB, with your milling skills, a bar mounted and 'plate', in the base flattener might be worth considering. If inclined, I can draw up an 'accessory' based on the dimensions.

Thanks Terry,

I did get one day on them before I checked them out more carefully, and can confirm that they ski like shit now. 186 Blizzard Bodacious (current black topsheet ones). It's funny, I'm recovering from a tibial plateau fracture and they've been my favorite resort daily driver for the last few years, but they're a big, heavy ski and I've been slow to reach for them out of the quiver this season. My knee's still not very strong, and they sounded like a handful. I got one great run on them in about 8" of fresh, setting first tracks, but as soon as things got chopped up and firmer, they felt terrible. I've been so in my head about the recovery that I immediately assumed it was that I just wasn't strong enough to drive them yet. Only after I got home did I think to check out the tune.

Anyway, yeah, I'm sure I could rig something up to put a file in the Base Flattener. I'll think about that a little more.

[Alpinord]

Thanks Terry,

I did get one day on them before I checked them out more carefully, and can confirm that they ski like shit now. 186 Blizzard Bodacious (current black topsheet ones). It's funny, I'm recovering from a tibial plateau fracture and they've been my favorite resort daily driver for the last few years, but they're a big, heavy ski and I've been slow to reach for them out of the quiver this season. My knee's still not very strong, and they sounded like a handful. I got one great run on them in about 8" of fresh, setting first tracks, but as soon as things got chopped up and firmer, they felt terrible. I've been so in my head about the recovery that I immediately assumed it was that I just wasn't strong enough to drive them yet. Only after I got home did I think to check out the tune.

Anyway, yeah, I'm sure I could rig something up to put a file in the Base Flattener. I'll think about that a little more.

I'm sure they ski horribly railed, but I'd see this as an opportunity to see for myself at what point they felt fine. Flat 3cm from edge? 5? More???

[HAB]

Oh gotcha. Yeah, I'm sure they don't have to be perfect, especially as a 118mm wide soft snow ski. But they need to be better than where they are.

[tuco]

Well, you should call and let shop know(If I was shop owner or even the tech, I would want to know, so that shit does not keep happening).
If you have the tuning equipment and the base structure seems fine, I would just hand finish your edges and see if that helps before just blindly grinding life away from your ski.
A wide ski is better on the base high side of not flat. The other way around flat out sucks and can be dangerous

[HAB]

Yeah, shop has been informed. Still deciding what I want to do about the skis. I've got a healthy quiver, so I'm not in a huge rush.

[Alpinord]

One random thought regarding railed skis needing to be flattened. Filling in the base section might be worth a consideration if too much edge would need to come off or the running surface would get a flat spot. If so, extruded or smeared base material repairs may not adhere well, and will not glide well nor hold wax like sintered base material patching.