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  1. #2651
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    I've got my Protests inserted for Shifts for binding swappage reasons, but that also made it easy to mess around with shims. I'm also a weenie who can't stand a ton of binding ramp.

    I'm happy skiing them without a shim in alpine boots, and somewhat surprisingly, also in my WTR soled XTD 130s. I like them much better with a 1/4" shim if I'm going to be skiing them with fully rockered touring soles.
    Last edited by HAB; 04-20-2020 at 12:33 PM.

  2. #2652
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    I've got my Protests inserted for Shifts for binding swappage reasons, but that also made it easy to mess around with shims. I'm also a weenie who can't stand a ton of binding ramp.

    I'm happy skiing them without a shim in ISO 9523 soles, and somewhat surprisingly, also in my WTR soled XTD 130s. I like them much better with a 1/4" shim if I'm going to be skiing them in my alpine boots.
    That's weird as the Shift is at its lowest amount of delta when adjusted for an alpine boot.

  3. #2653
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderjon View Post
    That's weird as the Shift is at its lowest amount of delta when adjusted for an alpine boot.
    I derped and wrote that exactly backwards. JFC. Editing now.

  4. #2654
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    Dec 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spyderjon View Post
    That's weird as the Shift is at its lowest amount of delta when adjusted for an alpine boot.
    I'm a bit puzzled by all of these ramp delta comments.

    If we can't x-ray the boot to see where the ball of the foot rests, aren't we making an invalid assumption?

    If (for example) the plane of the foot bed is referencend to the upper lip of the toe extension (as I suspect), then a binding that adjusts like the Shift or the Aaatacks would keep the ramp delta constant access boot types.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  5. #2655
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    Fair point that it's hard to know exactly what's going on in the boot re: height of the ball of the foot relative to the boot sole, and the boot board ramp angle. And I'm with you that that's what matters.

    I'm just describing my subjective experience with them in a bunch of different boots (Mach 1 130 LVs, Hawx XTD 130s, and Freedom RSs). Which may or may not extrapolate well to anybody else, but they are how I've felt in them (now that I've had enough coffee to write it properly).

  6. #2656
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    Fair point that it's hard to know exactly what's going on in the boot re: height of the ball of the foot relative to the boot sole, and the boot board ramp angle. And I'm with you that that's what matters.

    I'm just describing my subjective experience with them in a bunch of different boots (Mach 1 130 LVs, Hawx XTD 130s, and Freedom RSs). Which may or may not extrapolate well to anybody else, but they are how I've felt in them (now that I've had enough coffee to write it properly).
    Yup, in the absence of hard data, that's what I'm arguing for as well - subjective experience, hopefully not influenced by preconceptions.

    I was hoping to balance any tendencies toward confirmation bias (futile as that might be): my AFD is lower, therefore, I must have a lower ramp angle, ergo, I can feel it.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 04-20-2020 at 05:11 PM.
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  7. #2657
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    Jan 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    If (for example) the plane of the foot bed is referencend to the upper lip of the toe extension (as I suspect),
    ... Thom
    But they're not. Standing on the floor, I put one foot in in the RX the other in the Cosmos, ramp sensation is pretty similar left to right (delta now zero on both boots). In this position the Cosmos toe lug is about a cm higher than the RX's, whereas the heel lug is but a couple of mm higher on the Cosmos. What do you think happens when you put both boots in the same type of binding with a fixed toe piece height? Correct, the Cosmos will end up in a toe down position. Hence the ramp delta comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    I've got my Protests inserted for Shifts for binding swappage reasons, but that also made it easy to mess around with shims. I'm also a weenie who can't stand a ton of binding ramp.

    I'm happy skiing them without a shim in alpine boots, and somewhat surprisingly, also in my WTR soled XTD 130s. I like them much better with a 1/4" shim if I'm going to be skiing them with fully rockered touring soles.
    Thanks for your input. Inserts for Shifts make a lot of sense in this regards, good idea! Then, installing/removing shims only requires two different lengths sets of machine screws, so it would still allow to run the Shifts with alpine boots for resort only days, or for whatever purpose.

  8. #2658
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoooL View Post
    But they're not. Standing on the floor, I put one foot in in the RX the other in the Cosmos, ramp sensation is pretty similar left to right (delta now zero on both boots). In this position the Cosmos toe lug is about a cm higher than the RX's, whereas the heel lug is but a couple of mm higher on the Cosmos. What do you think happens when you put both boots in the same type of binding with a fixed toe piece height? Correct, the Cosmos will end up in a toe down position. Hence the ramp delta comments
    That makes sense. Standing on a hard floor is a helpful way of sussing this out.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  9. #2659
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    Feb 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoooL View Post
    Cross posting a question from the "Get down with Down" thread:

    My plans for a pair of Down CD104 are to set them up for a multi role capacity as a Swiss Army knife type travel/adventure/alpine/tour skis primarily for resorts and short hops skinning or hiking. Current plan is to install inserts for both Wardens and tech and will be driven by mildly beefed up Cosmos 3 boots. I have skied these boots in Wardens on alpine skis and I really like how they sit in those binders ramp-wise. Plus, should I want to use the RX's in them, I do not have to alter the delta. Win win.

    On paper, Shifts would be ideal for this role, and I've been contemplating Shifts for a setup like this for a long time, but what's holding me back is the delta increase with iso 9523 soles in alpine mode in those, as to my understanding, the afd has to be lowered quite a bit to accomondate those soles. Anybody delta sensitive out there who has used iso 9523 in shifts that care to comment?

    I could of course shim the toes, but then ramp/delta would be off should I opt for skiing them in alpine boots... WWMD?
    Forget about ramp delta, just think about ramp angle for the Shift.

    In the Shift, the ramp angle doesn't change when you change the height of the AFD. The toe lug stays in the same position in the toe piece regardless of sole thickness. The AFD goes up and down, not the whole toe piece. If the whole toe piece moved then your ramp angle would change.

    Your boots may have different ramps though, which others have mentioned, which is a whole different conversation.

  10. #2660
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    Feb 2005
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    659
    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    That makes sense. Standing on a hard floor is a helpful way of sussing this out.

    ... Thom
    This is a great way to start.
    Find some 1mm shims and measure your current binding delta. Duplicate the delta and then experiment with 1mm shims both at the toe and heel to vary the delta.
    You're only measuring static balance, not dynamic on a downhill slope.

    Still very helpful.

  11. #2661
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    Feb 2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoooL View Post
    But they're not. Standing on the floor, I put one foot in in the RX the other in the Cosmos, ramp sensation is pretty similar left to right (delta now zero on both boots). In this position the Cosmos toe lug is about a cm higher than the RX's, whereas the heel lug is but a couple of mm higher on the Cosmos. What do you think happens when you put both boots in the same type of binding with a fixed toe piece height? Correct, the Cosmos will end up in a toe down position. Hence the ramp delta comments.



    Thanks for your input. Inserts for Shifts make a lot of sense in this regards, good idea! Then, installing/removing shims only requires two different lengths sets of machine screws, so it would still allow to run the Shifts with alpine boots for resort only days, or for whatever purpose.
    Yes, then I think your issue here boils down to the difference in ramp delta of the boots, regardless of binding ramp.

  12. #2662
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    Jan 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdadour View Post
    Forget about ramp delta, just think about ramp angle for the Shift.

    In the Shift, the ramp angle doesn't change when you change the height of the AFD.
    No, but it will vary depending on what type of boot you use in the Shift because of where on the boot the lugs are in relation to the boot board. As previously stated, with the Cosmos' iso 9523 soles in Wardens, deltas and resulting total ramp is what I'm after. In order to reach that ramp in the Shifts, the toes have to be shimmed. That is not the case with alpine soles in Shifts.

  13. #2663
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    Feb 2017
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    99
    Anyone know where to order some replacement AFD screws, mine are just about stripped from trying to tighten it with random multitools etc.

  14. #2664
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    Jan 2020
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    152
    I have a dumb question. I mounted my shifts, popped my boot in, but i'm not sure hot to change the forward pressure. When I screw the bolt in and out the little silver rectangle stays in the same spot, or at least appears to.

  15. #2665
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZskibum View Post
    I have a dumb question. I mounted my shifts, popped my boot in, but i'm not sure hot to change the forward pressure. When I screw the bolt in and out the little silver rectangle stays in the same spot, or at least appears to.
    Got a picture?

    You do kind of need to get into the right ballpark before that indicator does anything. If you have it super loose it won't register.

  16. #2666
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    Jan 2014
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    Okay -- I don't want to read 107 pages....is there anything to be particularly careful about when mounting Shifts? Tips/tricks? Posts I should read.

  17. #2667
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    Dec 2008
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    1,486
    Find LeeLau's article on Newschoolers about the Shift + Tecton

  18. #2668
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    Read that -- covers lots of good adjustment issues (AFD/Forward pressure) but not much about anything in the mounting process itself.

  19. #2669
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    Dec 2008
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    Oh gotcha. I've mounted 5 pair w/out any issue or any real prep. They're super easy. The trick is really in AFD/FP)

  20. #2670
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    Jan 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathleenturneroverdrive View Post
    Oh gotcha. I've mounted 5 pair w/out any issue or any real prep. They're super easy. The trick is really in AFD/FP)
    Good to hear. Just wanted to confirm since I really hate fucking up friend's stuff.

  21. #2671
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    I think it was @lucknau who fiddled with the location of the front screw on the toe, and he put out a template. That screw location seems to have been a point of discussion.

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  22. #2672
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    Mar 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman922 View Post
    Anyone know where to order some replacement AFD screws, mine are just about stripped from trying to tighten it with random multitools etc.
    I presume you mean the height adjustment screw in the side of the AFD? If so, then the screw is not available as a spare and you'll need to order a pair of complete replacement AFD's. Amer have them in stock and any Sallie/Atomic dealer can order them. The part number is L407510001.
    Last edited by Spyderjon; 05-05-2020 at 08:00 AM. Reason: typo

  23. #2673
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    Jun 2018
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    Portland, OR
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Good to hear. Just wanted to confirm since I really hate fucking up friend's stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I think it was @lucknau who fiddled with the location of the front screw on the toe, and he put out a template. That screw location seems to have been a point of discussion.

    ... Thom

    Template at post #1251 in the paper templates thread

    Button placement in this revision matches the jig. I’ve mounted two different ways (button seated all the way into the toe slot, vs. back a little, per the jig) and had no discernible issues after two seasons.

    Just an aside, I remounted a pair this year after a season’s use and noticed that the button does experience wear. I think it’ll last a few years or more, but it’s something to be aware of.

  24. #2674
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    Jan 2014
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    Thanks! This is why you ask before you drill.

  25. #2675
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    西 雅 圖
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Okay -- I don't want to read 107 pages....is there anything to be particularly careful about when mounting Shifts? Tips/tricks? Posts I should read.
    When you slide the toepiece on, make sure the front screw is in the slot; it's easy to wedge the binding over the screw so the toe is off the topsheet of the ski. Look from the side to make sure it's flush with the ski deck.

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