The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

[margotron]

Just as another data point re: look vs. salomon

I raced for years on salomons. Always had to crank the din 3 or 4 above what my din should have been. Even then, I had several no-release releases, where you compress the ski (usually popping into an air, or prejumping a roller) and the forward pressure spring can't keep up with how fast the ski is rebounding, creates a space in the length between bindings, and your ski literally just falls off your boot. It can also do this coming out of a turn when you really pop the end of the turn and the ski really gives that energy back you you.

I think this is the answer to the Shift releases. I think it is about forward pressure more than DIN. DIN at the heel is only vertical and wouldn't explain a lot of the releases we are seeing

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I can ski Looks at 9-10. Solly at 10-11. Tech bindings at 11 vertical 10 side. Markers at, well, fuck Marker. Even their better models find a way to release every so often when others wouldn't. I've walked out of Dukes at 12 while skiing bumps with hardly an impact. And, yes, when I prerelease, I check to make sure the binding is adjusted correctly.

All these bindings might test out the same, but there are situations where they behave differently. And people ski differently/ put different stresses on bindings.

[Fish Rider]

Walk out generally once per day at Din 11. I'm 6'4 200#. Another P18/Shift owner. Have since moved to DIN 13 because annoyed. Haven't skied yet at that din.


Boot: Lupo 130C w/ GripWalk Soles



Some questions:

1. Is the pre-release happening at the toe or heel primarily?

2. What is causing it? Lack of forward pressure? Lack of downward pressure at the heel? AFD-related issues?


To all of you with pre-releases: what sole have you been skiing? Has it happened to you in alpine boots or only touring?

Toe release was from unlockable toe in walk mode. Seems to have been resolved. Chew through toes is bc soft plastic from Dalbello.

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[reckless toboggan]

I am going to bet you didn't have your sally bindings adjusted correctly as a wee lad. The tow wings and toe height are adjustable on salomons 916/STHs and not on pivots. I used to have my P18 pivots forward pressure set too light and would come out of them too often. Now the forward pressure is set tighter than spec and they release like my salomons 916/STHs do at the same din of 13. There is no 3-4 din delta...science

If people are pre-releasing on shifts at 11 din, something is not right. It's not because release characteristics of salomons in general

I was a certified tech working in shops for a decade.

I worked in shops to help pay for my skiing since I was 15. I also coached for 4 years.

Coach also worked at the shop (he got me the job), he was meticulous about our gear. We tuned and checked binders before every race.

They were set correctly.


Also, I agree, setting look turntables forward pressure tighter than spec (I'm not talking about the tab here) does make them ski like salomons...which is a hudge detriment.

There are several look setup threads here on TGR which explain how to set them up to spec. Use them, then back off 1 click on each arm. You won't pre-release, no-release release, or release in an unwanted fashion. You'll actually be able to feel the ski flexing more freely underfoot. That's the beauty of the pivots. Don't make them ski like sallys.

More forward pressure means your heel piece is pushing your toe piece through release MORE often, with LESS elasticity (not to mention creating a hudge dead spot in the flex of the ski under your boot). So if your forward pressure is really cranked up like you say, then you're the one who's not set up correctly. With look, because of the arc the heel goes through to get out of the way when the ski is flexing (kind of like a mini-telemark binding in this regard), they are actually less sensitive to lower forward pressure setting than salomon are. ie. Low ffwd pressure looks will ski, low ffwd pressure sally will fall off as they rely solely on the ffwd pressure spring.


With sallys, aggressive skiers who know how to work a ski would benefit from a stiffer (or at least a faster rebound) forward pressure spring.

With sallys, if the ski flexes at all, the heel piece has to back up into the ffwd pressure spring to accommodate the boot sole length which stays the same, while the space between the bindings is trying to get shorter. With every flex and rebound of the ski, the ffwd pressure spring has an opportunity to leave a small gap between the boot and binding upon returning to home position. A faster rebound spring would help this, but not eliminate it.

With look, the binding heel arcs upwards, keeping the space the same to accommodate the boot, allowing the ski to flex freely without relying on a spring. Because it relies on the arc of the binding, and not on a spring, you don't have the threat of too slow a rebound in the spring. The binding always moves where the boot moves. When you run out of this arc path, then you back up into the smaller amount of fore/aft float in the base of the heel piece. After you go through that, then you release. Again, this is following an actual turntable setup (not the tab), then backing off one click.

[TahoeJ]

I know Cody is busy skiing, but I'm hoping some folks at Salomon are at least following this thread. Some feedback might be helpful for those having issues.

[Cdubmpdx]

Doesn’t that ruin the whole point of having the Shifts be Din/Iso 5829275829284 certified? I don’t have issues when I set Marker bindings to 11, they seem to react pretty similarly to Pivots.

I get the theory behind just turning them to 13, I just can’t get behind it. Even at 11 I’m slightly nervous because it is 2.5 higher then what the chart says (I know the charts a suggested place to start and blah blah blah, but still).


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Good to see a positive report like CascadeLuke



someone mentioned putting your arm inside the boot and leverage it backwards while setting the AFD....seems to make a lot of sense.

skibird you're a pretty big dude...crank the shifts to 13 (?)...it reads like you kept increasing forward pressure but didn't set the din above 11?
It's been noted that the shift dins aren't going to react like Pivots.

For my part I'm living mostly vicariously through you guys, only a couple tours on mine and one inbounds day...I refuse to believe most of the problems aren't user error....until they happen to me :-)

It sounds like you have a defective pair Skibrd, that is what I took away from all this. It sounds like there may be a quality control issue with the forward pressure spring. I was simply pointing out to this thread that Skibrd may have discovered something that applies to others, I wasn't trying to start a TGR only ski 18 DIN debate. I'm with Skibrd, I'm not cranking my DINs just for the sake of it, I ski them where they should be based on how I ski. I'll crank them if I'm in no fall territory but that's it.

I also love my shifts. Zero ejects, I did have one brake release but that only happened once and it took two second to flip the riser down and re-engage it. I think they ski like my other bindings.

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[klauss]

When I set up my pivots originally according to the indicator, I would kick skis. So I had to deviate from the factory indicator and increase forward pressure and voila, no pre-release.

Weird that 916s stay on my feet, but I may just not know how to work a ski. You are saying that the salomon 916 forward pressure spring can't keep up with hard chargers and people bending skis. That's BS. Would someone skiing on the banzai tour put enough pressure on a ski to have this phenomenon you're describing happening?

And for the I've record, I've met and dealt with many certified techs / ski coaches over the years that didn't know shit and plenty who were mediocre skiers

The potential issue with the shift is not the same as your perceived differences between a P18 and a salomon 916. Neither of these binding should pre-release at 11 din if set up properly and if a binding does do that, which there are instances of the shift doing so in this thread, then it should be a warranty issue

[reckless toboggan]

[skibrd]

I do set my Pivots up tight with the forward pressure. I set them so the heel of my boot is gently touching the pocket of the heel piece and I don’t have issues. They come out when I feel they should.

I’m not sure I discovered a fundamental issue, or just an issue with mine. We will see.


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[reckless toboggan]

I do set my Pivots up tight with the forward pressure. I set them so the heel of my boot is gently touching the pocket of the heel piece and I don’t have issues. They come out when I feel they should.

I’m not sure I discovered a fundamental issue, or just an issue with mine. We will see.


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That's where most go, and it's just fine, but does make them ski more like salomons. Back one click off that if you want to liven up the ski a bit through more arc/elasticity and not really have any downside. Hell, go two clicks out and still be totally fine. You will feel your skis flex more underfoot.

[galibier_numero_un]

That's where most go, and it's just fine, but does make them ski more like salomons. Back one click off that if you want to liven up the ski a bit through more arc/elasticity and not really have any downside. Hell, go two clicks out and still be totally fine. You will feel your skis flex more underfoot.

Continuing this thread derailment ;-)

My Pivot forward pressure is set so the bottom ledge of the dongle is parallel to the ledge on the boot heel.

Is this a baseline for shortening, or lengthening the arms? It seems about right to me, but your comments got me thinking.

... Thom

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[reckless toboggan]

Continuing this thread derailment ;-)

My Pivot forward pressure is set so the bottom ledge of the dongle is parallel to the ledge on the boot heel.

Is this a baseline for shortening, or lengthening the arms? It seems about right to me, but your comments got me thinking.

... Thom

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I don't really get your meaning but maybe let's take this to the pivot thread and you can describe or post pics?

And now, back to your regularly scheduled shifty discourse...

[galibier_numero_un]

I don't really get your meaning but maybe let's take this to the pivot thread and you can describe or post pics?

And now, back to your regularly scheduled shifty discourse...

Awesome, & thanks. I'll snap photos & follow up there, assuming no one covers my approach first.

... Thom

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[detrusor]

I was unable to raise the afd on the wife’s skies high enough to contact the boot (1.5mm off). It was her atomic red stars. No wear.

In an attempt to get a little more height I broke the screw that raises it. I just kind of oomphed it, not hard and snap. My fault. But, be gentle w the screw.


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[runskijmh]

The toe lock is really stiff at first. Don't be afraid to get aggressive. There's one lock detent then another further lock detent/ . It works in over time

Have had the same issue. Need to keep lifting up the toe lock while skinning to make sure I don’t step out. Seems like the mechanism is too light to stay up in deeper snow...

[manxski]

Heh. Don't we all?

Just to chime in on the positive - I have two pairs of Shifts... 10+ days on one pair and several on the other, mostly resort skiing with a few tours mixed in. They've been skiing great, haven't had to touch the AFD on either of them. Jury is still out on the brake release while skinning issue.

I do think when reporting various issues people should include what kind of boots they're using, as we could start to see some potential correlation there. And on that note, I'm using Cochise 120's.

I’ve got exactly same boots and did 5 days skiing in resort without any release problems. They even kept me locked in during some poorly executed mogul runs, which typically is where I have unwanted releases.

So boots could be something to do with it?


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[train07]

I was unable to raise the afd on the wife’s skies high enough to contact the boot (1.5mm off). It was her atomic red stars. No wear.

In an attempt to get a little more height I broke the screw that raises it. I just kind of oomphed it, not hard and snap. My fault. But, be gentle w the screw.


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It looks like the Atomic Redster is an alpine boot not AT ( I could be wrong?)
There's a considerable toe height difference between the interchangeable alpine vs tech soles I purchased for Scarpa Freedom Sl boots...
It's possible you can't be using the Redsters, or shouldn't be trying to, in the Shift binding..

[lazyasian]

It looks like the Atomic Redster is an alpine boot not AT ( I could be wrong?)
There's a considerable toe height difference between the interchangeable alpine vs tech soles I purchased for Scarpa Freedom Sl boots...
It's possible you can't be using the Redsters, or shouldn't be trying to, in the Shift binding..

Huh? It sounds like you're saying that an Alpine boot shouldn't be going into the Shifts. Isn't half the point of them that they can accomodate any of the alpine or tech ISOs?

[train07]

Huh? It sounds like you're saying that an Alpine boot shouldn't be going into the Shifts. Isn't half the point of them that they can accomodate any of the alpine or tech ISOs?

that's what I thought too but I put a boot into the shifts forgetting that I still had the alpine soles installed....it would take some serious adjusting to get the toe up tight under the binding wings...it was a WTF moment until realizing my mistake....that's all I got in relationship to detrusors issue...maybe, maybe not

[skibrd]

that's what I thought too but I put a boot into the shifts forgetting that I still had the alpine soles installed....it would take some serious adjusting to get the toe up tight under the binding wings...it was a WTF moment until realizing my mistake....that's all I got in relationship to detrusors issue...maybe, maybe not

All sole standards should be comparable with Shifts. That was the beauty of it, I thought.


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[train07]

take it with a grain of salt...the shifts were adjusted to my tech soles and there was a huge discrepancy when my alpine soles were in the binding...as there should be I suppose....I didn't try to crank the AFD up higher to meet the alpine sole cause I finally realized what was going on...maybe my AFD wouldn't go that high like detrusor...only one way to find out

[detrusor]

My Lange rs130 fit just fine, I thought they were compatible w alpine and touring bindings.....


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[train07]

My Lange rs130 fit just fine, I thought they were compatible w alpine and touring bindings.....


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what I meant was take my comment with a grain of salt.......maybe you just got the gorilla grip.
I'll switch soles to alpine and see if the AFD meets the boot

[train07]

here the Shifts are set for the Scarpa Freedom SL tech sole



here the Scarpa alpine interchangeable sole is resting on the AFD which is still set for the tech sole...note the toe height vs the binding wings



here the alpine sole with the AFD still set for the tech sole



here's what it would take to set the AFD to the alpine sole....the toe wings are still not tight to the boot toe ( I mean vertically...I did NOT adjust forward pressure) and cranking the afd higher ain't going to happen at the risk of a detrusor episode.....the shift toe wings are not adjustable downward or upward, correct me if I'm wrong and that AFD just does not look happy (and of course somethings going to give at that angle)....and cranking it that high was met with a good measure of resistance

[Eluder]

Skied mine hard today in 12-24" of fresh.... One AFD keeps dropping on me, sometimes it lasts a day but most of the time it doesn't. The last two times I could here it happen, I thought I broke it honestly. I also had a walk out, it was debatable if it should have come off or not. What was strange is i have felt the same sensation before when your going over the front, I feel that on my Attacks, Wardens or STH's the elasticity would have kept the me in.... I have yet to have a toe release even after the AFD drops. Im gonna raise the heel DIN but the one AFD is bothersome.

I told myself this wasn't an everyday binding but for some stupid reason I keep skiing these skis everyday. The promise of not having to swap out setups is out weighing the issues.... for now.