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02-11-2019, 06:02 PM #1701Registered User
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I'm the same height and weight and had a similar experience wearing Lange freetours. Pre-releases in exposure, afraid to lay the ski on edge. Seems like a lot of aggressive skiers are blowing out of these things. Sucks it caused an MCL sprain for you. Probably not the last person that will happen to. Amer should take some accountability for this binding and recall.
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02-11-2019, 06:05 PM #1702
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02-11-2019, 06:11 PM #1703Registered User
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- Feb 2019
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- 2
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02-11-2019, 06:17 PM #1704Registered User
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- Dec 2006
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- Santa Cruz, CA
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- 612
I wouldn't quite say that yet. The AFD has definitely been a nuisance for me, but that's it. If it stays put the rest of the season it was worth the trouble. My guess is that most of the "walkout" issues have to do with forward pressure as a few people have mentioned hearing rumblings from shops that they are very sensitive to it being perfect. The marks don't quite line up when you're flush with the back of the housing (from the top down the little arrows aren't dead center on the hash mark), and it seems entirely possibly that either Solly ended up a millimeter or two off in their recommendations or the bindings are behaving inconsistently - with the standard forward pressure being okay for some and others needing more.
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02-11-2019, 07:01 PM #1705
Went on a 3 day hut tour with these bindings this weekend, a few observations.
1. The toe lockout lever requires a lot of force to initiate.
At first I thought the first "click" was the full lockout, but after the pins came undone on the skintrack I realized that the toe lever has to be completely vertical to be fully locked out. This was user error and once corrected it never let go again. I'm using Lange XT130 Freetours
2. The brake-lock mechanism is a little finicky at first use, but once I figured it out it was fine.
I found out that snow can get under the mechanism and cause it to have a bit of trouble latching in place. To remedy this, I lock the brakes manually before putting my toes in the pins, and then once the toes are locked I give the ski 3-4 hard stomps. After doing this I never had any inadvertent brake releases on a straight 6 hour tour, even when bumping the skis into each other.
3. Uphill performance is solid. Very pleased with how easy it is to step in and out of this binding once you get the hang of it. The riser isn't quite as easy to operate nor is the binding as light as the G3 Ion. The only real noticeable downside I found on the uphill was the single riser setting. There were some really steep portions where I wish I had another higher riser setting, but it's probably not a major deal. The two incline settings are perfect 90% of the time.
4. The downhill performance is incredible. I have the AFD set to barely touch the boot sole (using paper tear test) and the forward pressure is set correctly. I'm 5'10" and currently 160lbs, so I set my DINs to 9.5. Didn't have any issues with prerelease on steep'n'deep runs. Felt exactly like an alpine binder.
I'm sold on these. It's an awesome binding.
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02-11-2019, 07:05 PM #1706
Sorry to hear about your MCL, @gregliest. My combined condolences and thanks to all of you beta testers. I feel bad for Cody and the team 'coz you can't test everything.
So on one hand, we have suspect toe inserts (Cochise), and on the other, folks are popping out with XT Freetours (Dynafit issue inserts). Hmm ...
As far as releasing from the heel with the heel remaining down, I think this is what you described.
I recall @reckless toboggin commenting about a "no-release" heel release with Solly 916s in the current Look forward pressure thread (https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...73#post5586973). At "TGR-approved speeds", he reported coming out at the heel without the heel popping open. He surmised that the forward pressure spring couldn't keep up with the chatter.
I have no clue as to the validity of his conclusion, but I'm throwing it out there for consideration.
I wouldn't call all of the failures to pull the toe lockout lever to its fully locked position to be user error but rather crappy documentation and possibly poor visual design. It sounds as if they need some sort of visual indicator - you know - an icon of a skier skinning that we see on some binders ;-)
Hopefully, the toe lockout is more about this, than a design flaw.
While Cody and the team can only test so much, the design team CAN specify testing for an intuitive installation, setup and user operation (adjusting documentation as necessary, and possibly taking note of design revisions for future versions).
This is probably in part due to them falsely assuming that only trained shop personnel would take a screwdriver to the bindings. It's a flawed assumption, given the likelihood of folks running a quiver of boots.
As far as user operation they failed to specify adequate use-case testing. In my experience, you put something in the hands of a user who knows very little about the product and you watch them interact with it. Simple, n'est ce pas? When you've lived with a design for a long time, you tend to lose track of how a fresh set of eyes will interact with it (locking out the toe, etc.).
Another key consideration with respect to the toe lock is that for a fairly significant portion of the customer base, these may be the first binders they they tour with, tech or otherwise (assuming they tour with them at all)
... Thom
Sent from my LM-G710VM using TapatalkLast edited by galibier_numero_un; 02-12-2019 at 01:39 AM.
Galibier Designcrafting technology in service of music
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02-11-2019, 11:11 PM #1707Registered User
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- Feb 2018
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- 195
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02-12-2019, 12:13 AM #1708
If the Cochise boot in question is the original brown version, I have that boot with tech inserts and have never had anything weird happen in older dynafit tech bindings... So it may be premature to say the inserts are faulty.
I have never tried the shift, but wanted to throw that in the discussion.
Sent from my SM-G903W using TapatalkGoal: ski in the 2018/19 season
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02-12-2019, 07:45 AM #1709
a lot of good points up there, numero...
I've been thinking about a shops liability with the quirks that we are theoretically trying compensate for...AFD, din setting, forward pressure...
Assuming a shop is aware of "the issues"....what do they do?
"hey, we're going to set your din 3 higher" or do they say, "we'll set you at the chart but when you leave crank it up"? ( and a gazillion folks won't want to touch their din screws)
Or we''ll crank your AFD tighter than the specs, sign off on that please"...
this must be why some smart folks suggested don't buy a first year binding (even though this has been 7 years in development)
personally I never claimed to be smart ..
That said I still love this binding!....until I don't
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02-12-2019, 08:28 AM #1710
I wish I could say that I follow my own advice. I have a pair of Spring skis coming in and I'm giving serious consideration to either ATK Crests or Haute Route 2.0s - both with a new toe design.
I have time to wise up, however.
... Thom
Sent from my LM-G710VM using TapatalkGalibier Designcrafting technology in service of music
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02-12-2019, 09:11 AM #1711
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02-12-2019, 09:17 AM #1712
Nervously on the same page...
I had them too, and while I never had an issue with the swappable tech soles, I was very much aware of this. Constant swapping between soles would also eventually lead to just the slightest bit of wiggle, which can't be good for retention and also why I upgraded to the latest version a few years back where the tech inserts were built in with the alpine soles.
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02-12-2019, 10:36 AM #1713Registered User
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- Aug 2014
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I didn’t have issues coming out when touring with my XT Free Pros. It was always in said boots when skiing when I had issues.
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02-12-2019, 11:48 AM #1714
Can someone please detail the info regarding forward pressure? I'd be curious to see pictures on what is appropriate / correct.
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02-12-2019, 12:26 PM #1715
Posted umpteen times before in this thread and am reluctant to spam. My NS two articles have pictures showing the forward pressure. I believe other pics in this admittedly very long thread also have pictures. If you want to self-mount then you can take the time to do your own homework. Not thejongiest you but the apocryphal "you"
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02-12-2019, 12:30 PM #1716
Bottom of Page 25 here:
https://issuu.com/salomonnz/docs/sal...wtr2019_300dpi
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02-12-2019, 12:40 PM #1717
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02-12-2019, 01:06 PM #1718Registered User
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- Mar 2008
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- northern BC
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I found that ^^hard to read until i clicked on it to enlarge
so adjusting past the edge of the heel piece to line up with the arrows is the correct setting
while normally a binding is set with the heel piece or screw or whatever is flush with the mounting plate, which would be not enough forward pressure
i wonder how many SHIFT might be set this way ?Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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02-12-2019, 01:20 PM #1719
not quite.
#2 is the official recommended.
#1 is too tight.
what the shop guys told me is somewhere in between. If you look closely there is a tiny rectangle shape on top of the metal piece. they recommended lining the rear edge of that with the triangles. That is slightly more pressure than #2. I haven't had a properly charging ski since I adjusted mine to really test it though.
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02-12-2019, 01:27 PM #1720
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02-12-2019, 01:29 PM #1721
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02-12-2019, 02:31 PM #1722
Just made myself some delta reducing shims:
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02-12-2019, 03:01 PM #1723Registered User
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- Feb 2005
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- 674
Thanks for posting this
What boots are you using? And How much shim did you need?
I'm on my second set with XTDs. 9mm first and now up to 13mm. Finally feels right.
For what it is worth, with Alpine din soles I am comfortable at toe height=heel height.
And I am a very lame skier if heels are high. Kinda sucks to be so sensitive.
What boots are you using? And How much shim did you need?
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02-12-2019, 03:26 PM #1724
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ramp Delta with Alpine soles 1mm? When adjusting for different boot sole styles, the wings of the toe stay at the same height and the only the the AFD moves up or down. Meaning the ramp Delta stays constant at 1mm, but only the stack height changes.
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02-12-2019, 04:57 PM #1725
turnfarmer, I've got Mercurys/Vulcans which have 8mm of delta in the Shift. I like 2mm of delta so I'll use a 6mm shim. Previously ran a 5mm shim with Beast 14's to give the same angle.
That's not correct. Mock it up yourself and see how the angle for the boot sole changes versus the same boot sat on a level surface. Your hypothesis is correct with a Warden type binding were the AFD is fixed and the toe wings move up and down to accomodate different boot soles.
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