The Official Salomon S/Lab SHIFT MNC Thread -AMA

[Alkasquawlik]

I guess I should have asked why you wouldn't choose the SHIFT's to ski a fall you die steep line over a light weight tech binding. Why not tour over to and ski the Gervasuti Couloir on the SHIFT's? Too much of a weight penalty for that type of tour? Were problems noted in the SHIFT's with pre release on steep descents? Or is it that you can lock out the tech binding so that you can guarantee it won't release? I am just wondering how much confidence I should have with these SHIFT's on something steep.

Oh this has nothing to do with SHIFT, it has everything to do with any releasable alpine binding versus tech binding that locks out entirely. Because in a fall-you-die, super steep scenario, releasability in your bindings is not a requirement and in fact can only be a danger. So that's why many of the gnarliest of gnarly cham guys, like Andreas Fransson (RIP), Tony Lamiche and Alex Pittin lock their toes and mod their heels to completely lock out or get tech race heels that lock out. Personally, I don't ski that kind of stuff very often, so I my decision to be in locked out toes/heels on the ultra-gnar comes from following the lead of guys like Tony and Alex and their theories they've developed over the years. Personally, I feel comfortable skiing anywhere on the SHIFTS. I've gained a ton of confidence on them over the past year...plan on filming on them, skiing the resort on them, using them for most of my touring days and will even bring them to the Himalaya this Spring/Summer.

[regct]

Well we've done what we've could to test durability but in many ways, that will be proven over the next few years. I'm a big guy too, 6'2", 190 lbs and they've been working quite well for me. Oh and we actually had tons of athletes on them last year in addition to select guides and ski patrollers. This year you'll be seeing all of us on them a shit ton.

Just finished listening to the Gear30 podcast. What you guys seem to have accomplished is pretty awesome. Looking forward to replacing my brand new Kingpins next year.

I patrol at a BIG resort in MT, send a pair for my QST 106 and I’ll beat the shit out of them for 120 days straight and report back


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[WaistDeepGroomers]

Thanks Cody for coming on here and sharing. I feel like this demands a ski off though? Any takers? Cody gets the tech bindings, competing mag gets 18 DIN steel pivots

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[LeeLau]

I'm sure this is exactly the marketing material that will be used for selling the Shift in stores. And I think this is a great way to put it and absolutely true. Shift guarantees the alpine binding spec for releasing, something you could never do with tech unless the boot-binding interface was regulated in the same fashion as ISO 5355.

Nonetheless, as you know, the crew here on TGR is a little more attuned to the details. While the Tecton is an "ad-hoc" solution of sorts, I don't believe it is to be completely discounted. Sure, it isn't certified but again neither is the MTN binding and Salomon sells those. Weight wise it comes in somewhere in between Salomon's offerings - and it offers safety somewhere in between. Even if that safety has a larger variance in consistency. (Obviously I have no statistical evidence to back this up, so at the same time I'm talking out of my ass).

Either way, the Shift is awesome for gear innovation and its guarantees certainly make it very worthy.

Totally. You guys are the tech geek crowd so truly know the differences between marketing jargon and what lies in reality. The Tecton's positives should definitely not be discounted. The fact that tech bindings are adding elasticity and designing with downhill performance and safety in mind is a step forward. My thing is that ultimately those positives aren't verifiable enough to conform to alpine standards. So for me, despite the positive advancement, I still wouldn't have the confidence on that type of "safer" binding than I would with an alpine cert'ed binding because of the 30+ years spent on alpine bindings. For me, this isn't a Tecton vs. Shift thing entirely either, it's far more of a Touring ISO versus Alpine ISO thing. The MTN is a Touring binding, one that I love, but I also shift the way I approach the mountains and ski down them because I know their releasability is far different than the standardized form of alpine bindings. That compromise, lightness for safety, is one I will live with in certain situations, but one we did not want to live with in a majority of backcountry situations...hence why we developed the SHIFT and required it to fit into alpine ISO standards.

Cody is already doing a good job translating tech-geek to real-life so I'll just add this

As a reviewer I mention the ISO standards and certification in passing. When reviewing I tailor the review to the audience. ISO standards are documentation standards (which is what most engineers know). TUV testing is constrained to testing against the standards. It's simplistic but to most consumers DIN and ISO is what they want to hear. They don't know that there's an Alpine ISO and Alpine Touring ISO. They don't know the testing methods; they don't know that tech fittings and heel pins and heel pin gaps constrain testing methods.

What they want to know is - is it certified and if so, what certification? And they also want to have some real life examples of release. So when Lindahl says he exploded out of Vipecs on pillow drops to flat; or I came out of Vipec toes when catching my tips on the edge of trees on a luge run exit ; or submerging tips under snow-covered trees. When Cody, or Rubens or MikeD tell me they've skied the crap out of these bindings. Well that's good data.

The tough part to explain in real life is elasticity. To me; there's nothing as damp as the alpine boot in alpine binding feeling and that shows up in coral reef; sastrugi etc,. It doesn't show up in smooth sweet pow for obvious reasons. And that's where IMO my job ends and its' the consumers job to be honest with self and make a decision. The gear is a tradeoff and that consumer has to decide where to make the tradeoff

But of course TGR is full of gearwhores and micro-parsers who may very well buy Kingpin. Shift, Tecton, Evo, Radical, Rotation etc etc. But the majority of public doesn't read TGR or Wildsnow or Blister and will go with what works - for them. And I bet a lot of people will go for the Shift and not sweat the weight, the various distinctions between ISO certs and TUV testing etc.

[Kopi_Red]

Thanks Cody for coming on here and sharing. I feel like this demands a ski off though? Any takers? Cody gets the tech bindings, competing mag gets 18 DIN steel pivots

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Ditto. Very kewl!

As for a ski off, I'm down as long as his tech bindings are mounted to some snowlerblades. I'd still loose but whatever, it'd be a good time.

https://youtu.be/SSFowVywHao

Chinese downhill at 5:10

Alka's gracious victory speech at 6:45

[Supermoon]

Thanks Cody for coming on here and sharing. I feel like this demands a ski off though? Any takers? Cody gets the tech bindings, competing mag gets 18 DIN steel pivots

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Is the contest falling awkwardly while entering the lift line? Rolling down the windows while straight airing? Dropping a pole off the lift?

[RiderX]

Oh this has nothing to do with SHIFT, it has everything to do with any releasable alpine binding versus tech binding that locks out entirely. Because in a fall-you-die, super steep scenario, releasability in your bindings is not a requirement and in fact can only be a danger. So that's why many of the gnarliest of gnarly cham guys, like Andreas Fransson (RIP), Tony Lamiche and Alex Pittin lock their toes and mod their heels to completely lock out or get tech race heels that lock out. Personally, I don't ski that kind of stuff very often, so I my decision to be in locked out toes/heels on the ultra-gnar comes from following the lead of guys like Tony and Alex and their theories they've developed over the years. Personally, I feel comfortable skiing anywhere on the SHIFTS. I've gained a ton of confidence on them over the past year...plan on filming on them, skiing the resort on them, using them for most of my touring days and will even bring them to the Himalaya this Spring/Summer.

Thanks. I appreciate the response. it is interesting to hear how those guys approach skiing steep lines.

Any chance the mounting pattern will be changed to match the sth2? I already have a bunch of skis mounted with inserts with that pattern. Would love to be able to easily switch the bindings around.

[westoxified]

Thanks. I appreciate the response. it is interesting to hear how those guys approach skiing steep lines.

Any chance the mounting pattern will be changed to match the sth2? I already have a bunch of skis mounted with inserts with that pattern. Would love to be able to easily switch the bindings around.

Doubtful that a binding this far along would change a hole pattern. I heard it’s five screws in the front and four in the back so maybe if your inserts were for the old STH you could ski your skis backwards forwards. But it’s doubtful Sally just reversed that 997 hole pattern for the Shift. Or maybe there is an entirely deeper level of symbolism with the name shift?

[jacob_dbu]

Doubtful that a binding this far along would change a hole pattern. I heard it’s five screws in the front and four in the back so maybe if your inserts were for the old STH you could ski your skis backwards forwards. But it’s doubtful Sally just reversed that 997 hole pattern for the Shift. Or maybe there is an entirely deeper level of symbolism with the name shift?

I'm really bummed about the lack of matching hole patterns. At the very least the heel pattern should be rather easy to match up between bindings, since most are on a separate track anyways. I understand the toes may be tougher.

[PNW_Skier206]

Stack Height: 25mm at the toe.

Still a fair amount lower than a frame binding.

How many people have been skiing these so far? I’m sure issues are bound to come up post release when the mass market gets ahold of them.


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[el hefe]

Props to Cody for answering the dentist questions from people who can barely make it down a heli run without a guide holding their hand. #truth

[rabbit]

Totally. You guys are the tech geek crowd so truly know the differences between marketing jargon and what lies in reality.

Awww Shucks! I bet you say that to all the girls...

[Sashko]

Awww Shucks! I bet you say that to all the girls...

XDDD Gold one

Cody should I go with shift next year? Or buy tecton/king pin this season and buy more polished version of shift for winter 2019/2020?

[Spyderjon]

Swedish porn: http://youtube.com/v/MZDFtE4Q9VY

[N1CK.]

Swedish porn: http://youtube.com/v/MZDFtE4Q9VY

your link wasn't working for me Spyderjon ....

[N1CK.]

and for the non-Swedish speaking crowd ...

[TahoeJ]

Still a fair amount lower than a frame binding.

Yeah, that stack height isn't bad at all. For comparison:

Guardians: 26mm (I've skied these quite a bit and they feel like STH2's basically)
Dukes: 36mm (this is high enough where I noticed the height and really did not like it)
Kingpins: 21mm (awesome)

So 25mm is perfectly fine. Having said that, Cody - you should tell the marketing folks to take a different photo with maybe a different boot. The current one makes the stack height look ridiculously high and it's kind of off-putting to those who may not be willing to dig into the details.

My only reservation about the Shift is all of the moving pieces that aren't metal... but time will tell on that. I will probably give them a shot next season - not having that rigid toe on the downhill (plus proper safety release) is a true game changer IMO. I love the kingpins but those two things are my only "wants" with them.

The weight is fine, also. IMO the reason frame bindings feel heavy as shit isn't just the weight, but that so much of the weight is attached to your boot during each stride (so you are lifting the weight not just sliding it on the snow), not to mention the less efficient motion without pins.

[eskido]

I will probably give them a shot next season - not having that rigid toe on the downhill (plus proper safety release) is a true game changer IMO. I love the kingpins but those two things are my only "wants" with them.

X2
I am still inserting kpins and downhill binders on my "do it all/travel" setup because of this, pin rattle is real and harsh AF on the resorts.

[galibier_numero_un]

... The tough part to explain in real life is elasticity. To me; there's nothing as damp as the alpine boot in alpine binding feeling and that shows up in coral reef; sastrugi etc,. It doesn't show up in smooth sweet pow for obvious reasons. And that's where IMO my job ends and its' the consumers job to be honest with self and make a decision. The gear is a tradeoff and that consumer has to decide where to make the tradeoff

But of course TGR is full of gearwhores and micro-parsers who may very well buy Kingpin. Shift, Tecton, Evo, Radical, Rotation etc etc. But the majority of public doesn't read TGR or Wildsnow or Blister and will go with what works - for them. And I bet a lot of people will go for the Shift and not sweat the weight, the various distinctions between ISO certs and TUV testing etc.

This is stick-worthy!

... Thom

[bobsdesk]

1. The reason we went with 10° at the max height is mainly because of Greg Hill. Because once you follow a guy that can do 2 million vertical feet in a year and realize he does it on a 12° skin track, you realize that if you're on a 17° riser, you're touring too steep, are unnecessarily burning out your legs and ultimately making a shittier down for yourself. You'll never catch guys like Greg or Hoji on their high risers simply because if you need to use them, you're touring at too steep of an angle. So yeah, we tested higher but opted to get rid of the second riser because we felt like we didn't need it.

Can I pay you to send this quote on a Christmas card to my touring partners who won't f**king listen to me?

[grskier]

Cody is already doing a good job translating tech-geek to real-life so I'll just add this

As a reviewer I mention the ISO standards and certification in passing. When reviewing I tailor the review to the audience. ISO standards are documentation standards (which is what most engineers know). TUV testing is constrained to testing against the standards. It's simplistic but to most consumers DIN and ISO is what they want to hear. They don't know that there's an Alpine ISO and Alpine Touring ISO. They don't know the testing methods; they don't know that tech fittings and heel pins and heel pin gaps constrain testing methods.

What they want to know is - is it certified and if so, what certification? And they also want to have some real life examples of release. So when Lindahl says he exploded out of Vipecs on pillow drops to flat; or I came out of Vipec toes when catching my tips on the edge of trees on a luge run exit ; or submerging tips under snow-covered trees. When Cody, or Rubens or MikeD tell me they've skied the crap out of these bindings. Well that's good data.

The tough part to explain in real life is elasticity. To me; there's nothing as damp as the alpine boot in alpine binding feeling and that shows up in coral reef; sastrugi etc,. It doesn't show up in smooth sweet pow for obvious reasons. And that's where IMO my job ends and its' the consumers job to be honest with self and make a decision. The gear is a tradeoff and that consumer has to decide where to make the tradeoff

But of course TGR is full of gearwhores and micro-parsers who may very well buy Kingpin. Shift, Tecton, Evo, Radical, Rotation etc etc. But the majority of public doesn't read TGR or Wildsnow or Blister and will go with what works - for them. And I bet a lot of people will go for the Shift and not sweat the weight, the various distinctions between ISO certs and TUV testing etc.

I love this post...

[Lindahl]

Pretty groundbreaking product for sure. Even though the Tecton has similar properties, the Shift is actually a true legit alpine binding. Thats a huge deal. I trust the Tecton in soft snow, but I’m not about to huck to hardpack on it. If the Shift durability holds up, I could easily see it replacing CAST for my inbounds 105ish ski. I’d still lean towards the Tecton or even Vipec for a powder ski, but its awesome to be able to finally have a no compromise binding for an inbounds charging ski.

Of course, I think the Shift is more than that though for many people. If someone comes into the shop and wants a binding they can use in the resort but also tour on, the retailer can pick up the Shift and say this binding skis and releases exactly like an alpine binding. Thats a HUGE deal. The retailer doesn’t have to really explain or do anything special with the customer at all. The answer is simple. Nice work Salomon.

[jacob_dbu]

If someone comes into the shop and wants a binding they can use in the resort but also tour on, the retailer can pick up the Shift and say this binding skis and releases exactly like an alpine binding. Thats a HUGE deal. The retailer doesn’t have to really explain or do anything special with the customer at all. The answer is simple. Nice work Salomon.

The bad news is that will open the floodgates for sidecountry jongs to kill themselves.

[PNWbrit]

The bad news is that will open the floodgates for sidecountry jongs to kill themselves.

Oh the irony.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...d.php?t=313937

[NW_SKIER]

Oh the irony.

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...d.php?t=313937

Fucking brilliant work!