Who has switched from race-type boot to 3-piece?

[MCskid]

[QUOTE=skiing-in-jackson;5161783]Ha! That's my exact switch Salomon x Max 120 w/ zipfit liner to a Dalbello Lupo w/ stock intuition liner. Just finishing up two perfect 130+ day seasons in them. It was my first three buckle boot. They were great.

A very smooth forward flex and easy to get into and out of. Warm. I don't hike in them too often, but for hiking the Headwall, I never put them into walk mode.

skiing-in-jackson, curious as to why you didn't put a zip fit in the lupo? been skiing flexor/krypton's + zip fit's for 20 years now, couldn't imagine skiing anything else, especially zip fit's. What's your opinion on zip fit vs intuition? Thanks

[mikdes26]

Why not just an intuition liner replace in the salomons?

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That’s a definite consideration. Might talk with them about a tongue liner.


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[auvgeek]

So I did the opposite: tried Full Tilt (w. #10) tongue, then the Kr2 with B tongue, and finally gave up and went back to race boots. Despite many people saying cabrio boots have a "progressive" flex (including myself before I learned better), what I think they really mean "linear" flex -- the flex doesn't increase much as it's flexed into. I had a number of times where I bottomed out my ankle ROM very abruptly when driving big skis at speed in choppy terrain. Not terribly dissimilar to the feeling of unexpectedly folding the tip of a soft pair of skis in deep chop. I have reasonable dorsiflexion (something like 15 deg active, 18 deg passive, IIRC) -- naturally a little stiff, but not injured-ankle stiff.

So the cabrio boots didn't work for me, but they might work great for you. Still love the Vulcan (cabrio) for touring because the ankle strap is awesome when touring -- keeps my heel back in the pocket while the upper cuff and forefoot buckles are pretty much undone.

[jckstein]

So I did the opposite: tried Full Tilt (w. #10) tongue, then to the Kr2 with B tongue, and finally gave up and went back to race boots. Despite everybody saying "progressive" flex, what I think they really mean "linear" flex -- the flex doesn't increase much as it's flexed into. I had a number of times where I bottomed out my ankle ROM very quickly when driving big skis at speed in choppy terrain. Not terribly dissimilar to the feeling of unexpectedly folding tip of a soft pair of skis in chop. I have reasonable dorsiflexion -- naturally a little stiff, but not injured-ankle stiff.

So the cabrio boots didn't work for me, but they might work great for you. Still love the Vulcan (cabrio) for touring because the ankle strap is awesome for blister prevention.

What do you mean by "bottoming out ankle ROM"?

[auvgeek]

What do you mean by "bottoming out ankle ROM"?

Hit the end of my ankle range of motion before the boot provided enough support, i.e., folded the boot. Someone earlier also mentioned this as a potential downside, but said cabrio boots worked for him because he had decent ankle ROM. I'm saying that I'm not sure my issue was my lack of ankle ROM but rather that the flex pattern doesn't get substantially stiffer as you flex into it. In other words, I think the tongue would have to be very stiff at the beginning of the flex to be stiff enough for me at the end of the flex. This isn't as much of an issue in relatively consistent snow, but it is a big issue for me when skiing fast in deep chop and tracked pow, which are some of my favorite conditions.

I'm not saying everyone will have these issues, but the OP asked for experiences. I'm 160-165# using the stiffest tongues available on both the KR2 and Full Tilt. YMMV.

Edit: I love the upright stance so I switched to the most upright race boot I could find (Lange ZB). Miss the weight and warmth of the cabrio boots, but they ski way better for me.

[whyturn]

I used to Ski salmon 120 overlap and switched to full tilt with 8 flex. Then went to 10 flex. I can drive Big Skis but I only weigh 175. Would never go back based on flex, comfort and warmth

[mikdes26]

I used to Ski salmon 120 overlap and switched to full tilt with 8 flex. Then went to 10 flex. I can drive Big Skis but I only weigh 175. Would never go back based on flex, comfort and warmth

Great screen name btw.


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[galibier_numero_un]

Hit the end of my ankle range of motion before the boot provided enough support, i.e., folded the boot. Someone earlier also mentioned this as a potential downside, but said cabrio boots worked for him because he had decent ankle ROM. I'm saying that I'm not sure my issue was my lack of ankle ROM but rather that the flex pattern doesn't get substantially stiffer as you flex into it.

^^^ Agree^^^

Progressive = stiffens the more you flex into the boot. Hitting the end of your ankle's ROM sucks.

... Thom

[Jonny Snow]

Hit the end of my ankle range of motion before the boot provided enough support, i.e., folded the boot. Someone earlier also mentioned this as a potential downside, but said cabrio boots worked for him because he had decent ankle ROM. I'm saying that I'm not sure my issue was my lack of ankle ROM but rather that the flex pattern doesn't get substantially stiffer as you flex into it. In other words, I think the tongue would have to be very stiff at the beginning of the flex to be stiff enough for me at the end of the flex. This isn't as much of an issue in relatively consistent snow, but it is a big issue for me when skiing fast in deep chop and tracked pow, which are some of my favorite conditions.

I'm not saying everyone will have these issues, but the OP asked for experiences. I'm 160-165# using the stiffest tongues available on both the KR2 and Full Tilt. YMMV.

Edit: I love the upright stance so I switched to the most upright race boot I could find (Lange ZB). Miss the weight and warmth of the cabrio boots, but they ski way better for me.

This probably won't help you, but Full Tilts can be fitted with an oversized tongue which is both taller and stiffer. The 26-27 and 28-29 tongues are the same size, but the 28-29 is stiffer, and they both can be crammed on to a 25, making the boot very stiff. With a bit of grinding of the tip of the tongue, the fit is bit better and flex is slightly softened, but the 28-29 on a 25 is a major jump stiffer from a properly sized tongue. Obviously the 28-29 tongue fits well on a 26-27 boot for a slight stiffness increase. I assume the 30-31 tongue is even bigger and stiffer - they can be fitted on the smaller boots, but wouldn't make it onto a 25. Find a good shop and check for yourself.

https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/t...-Seth-Morrison

[stuckathuntermtn]

I suppose my Agent 120's stiffen as they reach the end of the flex, and the Lupo's don't, but not in a way that is easy for me to notice. At least not unless it's well above freezing and everything is slushy, and most boots ski like shit anyway. I had wraps in the Tecnicas, so maybe that was why the difference has been much less severe to me.

[gregL]

Despite many people saying cabrio boots have a "progressive" flex (including myself before I learned better), what I think they really mean "linear" flex -- the flex doesn't increase much as it's flexed into.

Exactly. 3 piece shell designs can be accurately described as linear, constant or consistant, but "progressive" is not the right adjective. Progressive flex, by definition, changes or "progresses" through the flex pattern (i.e. softer to stiffer) which best describes most 2 piece overlap designs as the buckle straps come together and the cuff comes down over the instep.

Whether or not you like it, describing the flex of a Full Tilt or Dalbello cabrio boot as "progressive," though well-ingrained in certain skiing subcultures, is not technically correct.

[kootenayskier]

Exactly. 3 piece shell designs can be accurately described as linear, constant or consistant, but "progressive" is not the right adjective. Progressive flex, by definition, changes or "progresses" through the flex pattern (i.e. softer to stiffer) which best describes most 2 piece overlap designs as the buckle straps come together and the cuff comes down over the instep.

Whether or not you like it, describing the flex of a Full Tilt or Dalbello cabrio boot as "progressive," though well-ingrained in certain skiing subcultures, is not technically correct.

I’ve skied in Raichle/Full-tilt cabrio style boots for 30 years, and always understood the flex to be progressive, in the technically correct sense that you refer to. The flex certainly feels like it’s smoothly ramping up towards the end of its range, though I’d love to see it graphed as is done with mountain bike suspension.


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[gregL]

I’ve skied in Raichle/Full-tilt cabrio style boots for 30 years, and always understood the flex to be progressive

Have you also skied some overlap/2 piece boots for comparison?

[auvgeek]

The flex certainly feels like it’s smoothly ramping up towards the end of its range, though I’d love to see it graphed as is done with mountain bike suspension.

Me, too! I would guess the graph of flex vs degree of ankle dorsiflexion is that cabrio flex is not exactly constant, but it's (mostly) linear with a small slope, while I'd bet an overlap boot is more like a quadratic (or higher order polynomial).

Of course, none of this means a cabrio boot can't be stiffer than an overlap boot -- they certainly can be!

[Andyski]

Me, too! I would guess the graph of flex vs degree of ankle dorsiflexion is that cabrio flex is not exactly constant, but it's (mostly) linear with a small slope, while I'd bet an overlap boot is more like a quadratic (or higher order polynomial).

Of course, none of this means a cabrio boot can't be stiffer than an overlap boot -- they certainly can be!

Curiosity: as a fellow Vulcan lover, do you find the flex in that boot linear?

[auvgeek]

Curiosity: as a fellow Vulcan lover, do you find the flex in that boot linear?

Yeah, pretty much. I have definitely have the same issue with the Vulcan as I do with any other cabrio boot I've tried, but it's generally less noticeable when touring. I always ski with tongues in, and my pair have a PW plug liner, WC booster strap, and bump stops removed. Supposedly, they're softer but more "progressive" with the bump stops off, but I honestly didn't notice much difference either way and I'm lazy so I left them off.

Anyway, I find the Vulcan has a small initial bump to get into the flex (like static friction -- this is obvious from fondling the tongue, too, IMO) and then it's pretty linear, except maybe a drop off at the very end of my ankle ROM where the boot starts to deform -- hard to tell precisely because in that moment, I'm usually more concerned with trying to stay on my feet than exactly what happened with my boots. On that point, it took me about a season in a cabrio boot to figure out the issue I mentioned above with my ankles. I couldn't tell if it was me or the skis or what.

[gregL]

Me, too! I would guess the graph of flex vs degree of ankle dorsiflexion is that cabrio flex is not exactly constant, but it's (mostly) linear with a small slope, while I'd bet an overlap boot is more like a quadratic (or higher order polynomial).

It's not that a cabrio boot's flex doesn't vary at all during the flex pattern, but it engages (offers resistance) sooner in the flex pattern and doesn't lock out at the end of the pattern like an overlap - in the midrange it's usually quite consistant.

If one design deserves to be called "progressive" it's not the 3-piece.

[creaky fossil]

I agree about that "progressive" term being technically incorrect & literally being much more a feature of overlaps. That's why I called the flex "fluid." Back in the Reagan years I ground a pair of Lange overlaps at the throat to make them less progressive. They hit that wall a bit early for me.

It does suck to have your ankle ROM bottom out and the boot keeps going. I had that happen 1x with the Dynafit Zzero4 green boots. Thought I was gonna roach an ankle when it happened. It's happened at what I'd call a relative 10-15% extent in my KR2s on a very warm day in heavy snow & made me want to use the stiffer tongue when it's above mid-30s. I don't often ski alpine when it's that warm though.

Trivia Q: did Raichle ever experiment with using that tongue accordion/bellows to enable the boot to firm up as it flexed, relative to a more slat-like tongue (Krypton)? Don't the tele boot makers tweak their bellows section for flex characteristics?

[skiing-in-jackson]

↑ Yes, I really like the Salomon X Max 120. I did the standard CS Shell mold and pretty quick put in the ZipFit. I never skied the stock liner- it is very nice, but I think I gave the new liners to a lifite. I had been given the ZipFit for a lecture I was going to do and had never skied in them. I called the rep and asked if I could keep them. That turned into two 100+ day years. Interestingly, although the ZipFit is heavier than a stock liner, that was the year I hiked the headwall the most- sometimes two times a day. ZipFits and copious hiking don't go together.

Once you have skied in ZipFits and have mastered the feel it can be difficult to go back to std liners. After being a naysayer for years, I really came to like them. They will kick your ass and have special fit considerations, but fit by a pro, you'll love them.

↑Before cooking the stock Intution liner that came with mu Lupos, I inserted the ZipFit, but it wasn't a good fit. The shell volume of the Dalbello was greater than the ZipFit could fill- (think about it- the Dalbello shell was designed for a bulky Intuition).

After years of four buckle boots the switch was smooth.

^^^ For lots of skiers, the words "progressive Flex" and "three buckle", go together... ahem...as stated in classic TGR vernacular/prose, like "hookers" and "blow". Yeah, progressive isn't the right term, but it fills in when technology and vocabulary don't meet. Also for most outta shape dentists, the three buckle boot was considerably lighter ans therefore easier to ski all day- less foot weight usually = better day.

In a book about ski boots a guy explains it like this: Four buckle boots are like a hinge and your calf and forefoot have cylinders on them . They flex at a pinch point where the two imaginary cylinders meet at the top of the ankle. To get to the "drive point"- where the ski and boot go forward- the two cylinders pinch and drive your rig on the snow. Three buckle boots lack this pinch point as the tongue is burly heavy and distributes force along the curved molded tongue and not at whatever variation of a 90⁰ angle the four buckle boot manufacturer dictates.

Three buckle boots come in two flavors: light and nimble- like Full Tilts and big and burly(er)- like Dalbello Krypton. I found my Dalbellos as laterally stiff as any four buckle boot. That's the main argument against "cabrio" boots- that they aren't laterally stiff enough for good skiers. Sure some Full Tilts are pretty wimpy, but Dalbellos just don't have that light feel. However, I know some very good skiers in Full Tilts.

[auvgeek]

However, I know some very good skiers in Full Tilts.

I want to make it very clear that I think the boot a skier chooses has much more to do with anatomy, preference, and skiing style than skiing ability. Some great skiers rip around in soft, light boots.

Edit: didn't want/mean to imply anyone in particular thought the opposite; it's just that whenever these types of conversations happen, it can get to be something of a contest of who skis the stiffest, heaviest boot or stiffest, heaviest, straightest ski.

[skiing-in-jackson]

^^^Sure.

[jetski]

Not too much to add but I spent 18 years on Salomon 110-120 flex. 8 different pairs. I shred harder than your mom and for sure the overlap outperformed my 102 mm Fulltilts. But ease of use and comfort are more important to me as I age. I adapted and there is no going back. Cracked a Full tilt shell 30 days in which I have only done once on all my Salomons and that was most likely caused from removal, when the liner got stuck everytime in the overlap.
2nd pair of Full tilts Decendent. 8 flex. Reminds me of 100-110 Flex Salomon.
First few runs on the 3 peice were super weird. Felt like I was going to smash my face on my tips. Obviously they are stiffer than that and after 5 runs I reverted back to shreding so freakin hard all the ladies swooned. And some dudes...

[iriponsnow]

I want to make it very clear that I think the boot a skier chooses has much more to do with anatomy, preference, and skiing style than skiing ability. Some great skiers rip around in soft, light boots.

.

^^^^ What I find in an overlap w/ my fat feet & narrow ankles/smaller calves is that the buckles / latches have to be so snug on the ankle/cuff that the boot maximally overlaps & it feels as if I'm running into a wall. Too much plastic in front of the ankle. This is never an issue with the cabrio tongue.

[whyturn]

^^^i agree with this and another reason I went cabrio. Also the flex is so smooth but can be driven.

[kootenayskier]

It's not that a cabrio boot's flex doesn't vary at all during the flex pattern, but it engages (offers resistance) sooner in the flex pattern and doesn't lock out at the end of the pattern like an overlap - in the midrange it's usually quite consistant.

If one design deserves to be called "progressive" it's not the 3-piece.

I’ve tried overlap boots, but never owned them. I don’t disagree with your description of cabrio boots flex. It’s the ramp up, rather than lock out, at the end of the range that I find distinctive, and appreciate.


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