Kingpin charging

[JPaul]

G3 binding developers they claimed that “we (i.e. G3) have never ever had a single warranty for a broken aluminum part in the ION”

Good way to put a positive spin on the plastic-related Ion issues!

[teosickrider]

Joining the discussion to share my experience with Kingpins.
I am a ski instructor in Switzerland and ski 120+ days/season. 80 days slopes/ the remaining I like to charge in freeride/touring terrain. I weigh 76Kg , 5'8", 38 y.o. and 35 skiing.
Last Monday I was out for a short tour on home terrain in Diavolezza, just to get out of home during quarantine (we're allowed to in CH). Spring snow, perfect spring conditions.
I was cruising at about 40-50 km/h and found a little jump that I always get on just to have some fun. I landed on very soft watery spring snow and my skis dove into the snow, I didn't expect that.
I tomahawked and the left binding released but the right one didn't: I broke my heel ligaments and the fibula.
The Kingpins are well set (I'm kinda experienced and used to own a shop) and cranked at 11: I set Pivots and S916 at 10, never had a problem even in falls like this.
Now I have to say....WTF Marker???!!!! I used to feel ok charging with Kingpins...but it looks like it's not Ok.
I'm sure it's been a problem with the heel piece that didn't release.

[ex-powderbroker]

Man that sucks that you're injured and I know this is just a bag on Kingpin thread but doesn't skiing have some inherent risks?

Good luck with your recovery.

[teosickrider]

Man that sucks that you're injured and I know this is just a bag on Kingpin thread but doesn't skiing have some inherent risks?

Good luck with your recovery.

Thanks man.
It does. I'm well aware of the risks, they're part of the game.
I'm taking it in a quite philosophical way anyway.

[mr_pretzel]

This is my issue with kingpins, they allow you to ski very hard, but don’t release at the toe and aren’t as safe as alpine bindings. I wonder if ski patrols everywhere see more tib/fib breaks with the rise of the tech toe.

Sucks you got hurt man, good luck with the recovery.

[detrusor]

As I’ve said in a bunch of different forums. We have a tone of tibial plateau fx’s and tib/fib fx’s come through as traumas at the U of Utah. Vast majority are on pin bindings at the resort. It’s fucking ridiculous how many people feel as though it’s a substitute for an alpine setup. Always hear “the guy at REI said it was the only setup I needed!”


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[skibrd]

As I’ve said in a bunch of different forums. We have a tone of tibial plateau fx’s and tib/fib fx’s come through as traumas at the U of Utah. Vast majority are on pin bindings at the resort. It’s fucking ridiculous how many people feel as though it’s a substitute for an alpine setup. Always hear “the guy at REI said it was the only setup I needed!”


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It’s nice to finally here this. Kingpins, like all tech bindings, are tools for a specific job, and that’s NOT charge hard inbounds bindings.


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[mr_pretzel]

Toe release is important, yeah lots of people are fine on tech toes and sammy C hucks huge on them(locked out yikes), but when you have the option for something with a toe release like the shift and kind of the tecton then that should be the obvious choice.

I mean shifts weigh about the same as the old beast 14 and a bit heavier than the kingpin, but safer. I don’t get how the heavy weight pin binding market is still around.

[teosickrider]

This is my issue with kingpins, they allow you to ski very hard, but don’t release at the toe and aren’t as safe as alpine bindings. I wonder if ski patrols everywhere see more tib/fib breaks with the rise of the tech toe.

Sucks you got hurt man, good luck with the recovery.

Thanks....shit happens. The good part is that the season is over anyway.

As I’ve said in a bunch of different forums. We have a tone of tibial plateau fx’s and tib/fib fx’s come through as traumas at the U of Utah. Vast majority are on pin bindings at the resort. It’s fucking ridiculous how many people feel as though it’s a substitute for an alpine setup. Always hear “the guy at REI said it was the only setup I needed!”


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You don't see so many people skiing "inbounds" with pin bindings here, even though inbounds does not exist here in the Alps. You can always go wherever you want.
The kingpins, anyway, are mounted on my dedicated touring setup. I'd never ski them in an "inbounds" style environment, I have Pivots and 916 for that.
I guess I'll have to swap bindings as I don't trust them anymore....or crank the DIN down to 9 and ski them without charging in real ski-touring style.

[ddraver]

6 months of accident insurance coming your way, Timed it perfectly I'd say!

See you in the hospital

Get well soon

[teosickrider]

Thanks!
Already out of the hospital, in CH things go quick!

[ddraver]

Been waiting a month for mine in Bern cos Corona...

[Wetdog]

Joining the discussion to share my experience with Kingpins.
I am a ski instructor in Switzerland and ski 120+ days/season. 80 days slopes/ the remaining I like to charge in freeride/touring terrain. I weigh 76Kg , 5'8", 38 y.o. and 35 skiing.
Last Monday I was out for a short tour on home terrain in Diavolezza, just to get out of home during quarantine (we're allowed to in CH). Spring snow, perfect spring conditions.
I was cruising at about 40-50 km/h and found a little jump that I always get on just to have some fun. I landed on very soft watery spring snow and my skis dove into the snow, I didn't expect that.
I tomahawked and the left binding released but the right one didn't: I broke my heel ligaments and the fibula.
The Kingpins are well set (I'm kinda experienced and used to own a shop) and cranked at 11: I set Pivots and S916 at 10, never had a problem even in falls like this.
Now I have to say....WTF Marker???!!!! I used to feel ok charging with Kingpins...but it looks like it's not Ok.
I'm sure it's been a problem with the heel piece that didn't release.

You are 76kg and have your release set at 11? There is your answer. Sounds like a forward fall, so vertical release? I am 85kg and ski hard with mine at 8 which is what the DIN charts recommend. They always stay in when they should and release when they should.


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[beeeom]

You are 76kg and have your release set at 11? There is your answer. Sounds like a forward fall, so vertical release? I am 85kg and ski hard with mine at 8 which is what the DIN charts recommend. They always stay in when they should and release when they should.


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Was my first season on Kingpins this year, and ya, I'm probably 95kg with gear and pack on... I ski hard, run them at din 10, & lock them out with one "click" (out of 3 or 4 "clicks"). I had maybe 3 pre-releases all season and they only happened when doing hockey stops in manky snow... They released a couple times in legitimate crashes when the probably should have. So they seem to be working well for me.

[Any]

You are 76kg and have your release set at 11? There is your answer. Sounds like a forward fall, so vertical release? I am 85kg and ski hard with mine at 8 which is what the DIN charts recommend. They always stay in when they should and release when they should.

Similar, running at 8.5 or 9. Its hilarious when I see people unnecessarily running 15.
But I thought I'd add that the boot sole length makes quite a large difference to DIN too.


An update from earlier in the season; I managed to break a pin on my 2016 Kingpins in Feb.
After 400+ days of skiing Japow, packed pow, pillows and small-medium cornice drops, I crashed into a tree and tore or broke a couple of things in my foot, bent a ski, and waddya know, a pin broke off. Those damned cheap nasty bindings. (sarcasm alert)
Actually the pin didn't break immediately, I was backcountry but I was able to ski most the way home on 1 foot. Upon removing skis the pin came off with my boot.
Local ski shop reinforced their reputation for being awesome, my toe piece was replaced under warranty by the next evening.

[teosickrider]

You are 76kg and have your release set at 11? There is your answer. Sounds like a forward fall, so vertical release? I am 85kg and ski hard with mine at 8 which is what the DIN charts recommend. They always stay in when they should and release when they should.


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Yeah, I'm an aggressive skier and I have quite a lot of experience. I ski for a living after all: I don't crank up the DIN just for the thrill. The tables are just a reference but then you have to adjust the DIN according to your abilities and how you ski. I had several unwanted releases at 9-10 with Kingpins, none at the same din with Pivots or S916 (which always released when they had to). That's because the snow in the Alps is not like the snow in north America or Japan: it gets nasty here sometimes!
I even talked to a couple of pros I know and they confirmed that I'm not the first one breaking a leg because of a non-release.
But hey...if you feel comfortable using these binders that's no problem! I'm just saying they may not be so good for skiing hard in complete peace of mind. In the end (and that was my mistake), they're pin bindings and not supposed to be treated like alpine ones.

[rod9301]

Was my first season on Kingpins this year, and ya, I'm probably 95kg with gear and pack on... I ski hard, run them at din 10, & lock them out with one "click" (out of 3 or 4 "clicks"). I had maybe 3 pre-releases all season and they only happened when doing hockey stops in manky snow... They released a couple times in legitimate crashes when the probably should have. So they seem to be working well for me.

No, they are not working if you had pre releases.

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[dcpnz]

Can someone please define a “pre-release”.

The idea that a binding should stay on just because you don’t think it should have come off is comical.
And the idea of cranking it up so it doesn’t come off and then complaining that it doesn’t release is ridiculous.

Bindings are designed to release when they encounter sufficient torque in a certain plane. Unless its broken and not functioning as designed (which can be tested on a bench) then the “prelease” or “non release” argument based on you not wanting it to happen in a certain situation or because of injury is BS.

[XXX-er]

'gona dogpile on this one ,

Its a "DIN like" setting as opposed to a real DIN setting in any case yeah I turned mine up till they don't fall off unless they should , If they never fall off that could mean they are set too high, they did not release and 11 seems really high for a weight of 76 kilo/167 lb

re : the toe release, some folks think there is a different release value in the toe by pulling the toe lever up only 1 click or 2 clicks but actulay tech toes are either locked or not

[auvgeek]

Can someone please define a “pre-release”.

The idea that a binding should stay on just because you don’t think it should have come off is comical.
And the idea of cranking it up so it doesn’t come off and then complaining that it doesn’t release is ridiculous.

Bindings are designed to release when they encounter sufficient torque in a certain plane. Unless its broken and not functioning as designed (which can be tested on a bench) then the “prelease” or “non release” argument based on you not wanting it to happen in a certain situation or because of injury is BS.

By your analysis, elasticity is irrelevant in binding design then. Because if there's sufficient torque in a certain plane, the binding will release. If there's not sufficient torque, they won't release. Black and white. But that's not real life. Hence we have elasticity and the concept of pre-release.

Frankly, "unwanted release" would probably be a better choice of words than "pre-release" but I didn't make up the terms.

[XXX-er]

well if you buy one of them tech bindings with the elegant U spring design you don't have to worry about cranking anything

[teosickrider]

One ski fell off, at 11, as it's supposed to be in a tomahawk fall.
11 is not too high, you always have to keep speed, abilities and situations in consideration. And, anyway, my real weight when skiing is like 82kg.
My suspect is that the cement kind of snow played a big role but I can't be sure. It might have happened with any binding, it's part of the game.
Still...I don't trust these bindings anymore...

[dcpnz]

By your analysis, elasticity is irrelevant in binding design then. Because if there's sufficient torque in a certain plane, the binding will release. If there's not sufficient torque, they won't release. Black and white. But that's not real life. Hence we have elasticity and the concept of pre-release.

Well, no, not arguing its irrelevant but perhaps oversimplified my argument a bit. I’m arguing that bindings are mechanical devices designed to function in a certain way. Perhaps i should restate, that if there is sufficient torque over the required range of distance then it will release assuming it is functioning correctly. If there’s not it wont.

Frankly, "unwanted release" would probably be a better choice of words than "pre-release" but I didn't make up the terms.

Well that’s probably the crux of it really. Calling something a pre-release implies the binding is malfunctioning. For the vast majority of circumstances described on TGR “unwanted release” would be a far better term.
And correcting for an “unwanted release” by cranking up the settings kind of nullifies the validity of non-release malfunction causing injury argument.

[mr_pretzel]

When there is no release at the toe you are at higher risk. Go put your boot in a kingpin and kick the boot close to the toe. You wont release, do it in a alpine binding you will release. His DIN might not too high for the terrain and level of aggresiveness he skis and depending on how the ski got twisted could have happend regardless. Because again, it is not designed to release at the toe.

[detrusor]

I get losing trust in a binding. I had a miserable day full of pre releases on my shifts after getting snow in them on a deep powder day at the bird. I get that they work well if your sole and binding are completely clean....but how do I do that after a crash in 3 feet of fresh? Every little bump or turn had the ski ejecting off of my foot.

Zero trust. Sold them and moved on to cast.


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