Kingpin charging

[creaky fossil]

The Ego King now pretends to be a binding expert. And while saying I'm a "bully" while he rams down your throat gross exaggerations of his abilities.

Narcissus is here!

[XXX-er]

the sexual tension happening in this thread is really something else

get a room you 2 and ram something down somebodies throat!

[rod9301]

Yeah, still superior aren't you? My eyes, the rolling of my eyes....

What does it mean when you PROJECT the idea that you "set me off"?

I'm clarifying, which is something enginerds are ill-equipped to do given their obsessive binary thinking. Like Lindahl, you are far far far far too impressed with yourself. Can't admit being wrong even when glaringly so.



Fairly certain I did just that.



Funny how you would listen to Lee but not me. Being diplomatic, Lee says I'm "on the right track" because he doesn't want to offend you or Lindahl. I don't carry the same fear of offense, because (1) i'm not Canadian, and (2) I don't like pretentious putzes and don't tolerate them well. Usually, I call them out and clarify where they're mistaken. As I've done here.



You dumpling, I can't confirm your "understanding" because I'm not inside your mind. Maybe if you spent a bit more time learning logic, reasoning, writing, speaking, rhetoric. And a bit less time designing puffery paragraphs to sell overpriced turntables.



Wait. Is King Ego doing a backpedal? Or just lying?

Must resist the temptation to further smack your pathetic ass to the pavement.

Go ski a girder and run up Annapurna, little Journet.

***************

This is what happens when you let "kidwoo" and "stuckathuntermtn" and "Danno" tell you that creaky is an insane ignoramus.

You believe those three douchebags, and in the process, get it completely wrong.

Kudos.

You have fake experts like Lindahl being heard and believed. This must be the greatest achievement ever found after Jer created this place.

Wow!

Did you skip your meds this morning?

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[rod9301]

My $0.02 is that rotating toes are designed to remove a major variable in the horizontal release process, for consistent release values at the heel for TUV certification. Without the rotating toe, the interaction between the toe pins and boot sockets can vary tremendously due to different brands of boots, different amounts of pin or socket wear, debris in the sockets, BSL (leverage), etc. Some pin/socket combinations might add a considerable amount of force to the tested heel release value, and some pin/socket combinations might pop right out. The rotating toe makes all of those pin/socket/toe-spring-strength variations irrelevant.

All the jazz about "increased elasticity" or "reduces vibration" is marketing BS, IMHO. If there is any reduction in felt vibration, it's only due to the inherent slop in the pivot mechanism, and who wants more slop in a binding.

When Dynafit designed models with rotating toes, I wonder if they had to increase the heel spring force for a given release setting, since the toes no longer assist with resisting horizontal movement at the heel. If they did, it could explain why some users of these bindings feel like the new toe improved the performance, when they might really be feeling is a more rigid heel.

Exactly, done for consistency in release, not to prevent pre releases.

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[LeeLau]

All the jazz about "increased elasticity" or "reduces vibration" is marketing BS, IMHO. If there is any reduction in felt vibration, it's only due to the inherent slop in the pivot mechanism, and who wants more slop in a binding.

When Dynafit designed models with rotating toes, I wonder if they had to increase the heel spring force for a given release setting, since the toes no longer assist with resisting horizontal movement at the heel. If they did, it could explain why some users of these bindings feel like the new toe improved the performance, when they might really be feeling is a more rigid heel.

I confess to being one of the talking heads who talked about the toe being elastic. When I really should have said that the entire toe-heel system is more elastic because of the return to centre characteristic of the toe. Definite over-reaching on my part and probably a bit of kool-aid in that the Beast (and really any binding without the heel gap) skied so much better on hardpack then the older bindings with heelgap.

One point to ponder from your last para and thought experiment on my part.

Does having more spring tension at the toe help for quality of release? Seems to me that if you have more spring tension at toe then you'll have to decrease spring tension at heel for equal force to release no? Is it not the case that having more spring tension at the toe may have to do more to help with retention while touring?

[creaky fossil]

Wow!

Did you skip your meds this morning?

Nope. Talked to Danno's rabbi, he suggested the strategy.

But anyway... you could always tell me where I'm wrong here. Pretty much everything I've said was accurate, if not described in the insider lingo of MEs who have a hard time with fluidity in concepts and know only rectilinear boundaries, neat tidy categories, and a restricted vocabulary.

Nice touch on the "meds" gig. That was YOUR rabbi suggesting that one, eh?

*************

Lee, conceptually the swing creates "elasticity" of the weakest sort. You and I can talk that way, we understand conceptual fluidity.

Of course Lindahl will say "but it's not made of rubber, thus not literally elastic!" or some such ME nonsense of hyperliteralism. Some day that fragile ego of his will constitute itself and he'll be able to admit his ignorance and average-ness.

I think MTB suspension analogies here: the "elasticity" of the swing toe is about as controlled and reliable as a Pro-Flex's elastomers, when they are compared to a modern damper-equipped control.

Alpine toes took a while to gain reliable elasticity that tested smoothly on the bench and literally stopped pre-releases. "Hey, my MRR toe is an on-off switch, and that's great, why are you listening to those guys over at Geze, they're not Marker!"**

** Same could be said re Salomon, 111/222/444/555 -- less so on 555, but pinnacle on/off ridiculousness in the 444, combined with shitty design (roller follower anchor/pivot pin bending after 4 or 5 release cycles). Never seen so much materials waste via discarded defective products as with the 444 toes. Salomon very lucky America was not HyperLitigationLand in the 1970s, it would have whacked them good.

the sexual tension happening in this thread is really something else

get a room you 2 and ram something down somebodies throat!

You Canadians are so sure everyone's gay! Bell & Howell never projected so much!

[Lindahl]

Does having more spring tension at the toe help for quality of release? Seems to me that if you have more spring tension at toe then you'll have to decrease spring tension at heel for equal force to release no? Is it not the case that having more spring tension at the toe may have to do more to help with retention while touring?

Yes, it does help with retention while touring. Unless I lock out, I can’t tour in several Dynafits. Not so with ATK 14s.

As for needing to decrease heel spring strength, I’m not entirely sure it’s necessary. With the heel free, you have so much leverage through the length of the boot, forcing open even the stronger toes feels pretty easy to me. So, I can’t imagine the toe clamping force plays a large enough role before the heel rotates out? Maybe 1 RV at most?

[gingersnowman]

So this happened to my friend a week ago...



Second time out on the bindings, we mounted them ourselves. At the resort, he knocked a tree with the back of his skis and the heel piece exploded as shown. I was worried it was our mount, but the rail was intact so it wasn't that. Luckily the store is sending a replacement no questions asked, but still...

Anyone know something like this to happen? It wasn't a big hit on the binding (he stayed on his feet attached to the skis), so my only theory is there was already a weakness in them.

[burrito]

So this happened to my friend a week ago...

This looks like a pretty classic flow issue from when the plastic was injection molded. Hopefully it was an aberration and not an issue with the mold tooling itself.

[Huskier]

If anyone's interested, I ended up succumbing to vanity and mounted the Kingpins. Backseat air to double forwards release, as intended. *Shrug* seems ok.

[Any]

Spyderjon hooked me up with Kingpins in Nov. (thanks again btw)
So far 5 days backcountry and 20+ days inbounds with Kingpin 13's on nice fat Line Pescado's, with Scarpa Freedom RS booties.

Japanese early season ultra dry ultra deep powder. Fluffy pillow lines with disguised tree branches, invisible onsen holes that jar your knees, sharp and deep river crossings, warmup 3 foot drops mid season that you suddenly realize are 10 foot in early season, and a couple of days of rain'ed-on rock solid wind scoured ice sheet type snow ..... But not a single freaking issue.

So far mine have handled everything I could possibly throw at them.

[grinch]

They can handle anything








Sorry

[SB]

That failure sure does look like molding problems. Can you tell if part of the fracture looks old/dirty?

[gingersnowman]

That failure sure does look like molding problems. Can you tell if part of the fracture looks old/dirty?

Didn't look dirty to me, he had them a year unused before mounting this year, and had barely had any use this season with no hard riding. Hopefully it is an unlikely defect as the worst part is not being able to trust them - lucky it didn't happen in the backcountry.

I would guess if something that catastrophic happened often it would be known wabout.

[SB]

How cold was it when this happened?

[gingersnowman]

Not very. -5-10C

[Huskier]

If anyone is interested in the outcome of skiing an admittedly underpowered binding in consequential in-bounds terrain, here ya go:

F*cker let me loose in the middle of a jump turn Billygoating down a small cliffband. Ended up going for a ride over the falls, luckily nothing hurt but my pride. I'm well aware of the pin-fall-out problem, but on closer inspection this looks like the metal straight up sheared. Mfg defect?

[Skidog]

If anyone is interested in the outcome of skiing an admittedly underpowered binding in consequential in-bounds terrain, here ya go:

F*cker let me loose in the middle of a jump turn Billygoating down a small cliffband. Ended up going for a ride over the falls, luckily nothing hurt but my pride. I'm well aware of the pin-fall-out problem, but on closer inspection this looks like the metal straight up sheared. Mfg defect?

Ouch. Glad you're alright. I know what it feels like to bounce down a cliff band. Not fun.

Looks to me like that sheared right off, but what's the scratching around the pin area? Looks to go half way round. Looks like maybe a small dent too. Hit anything before it ejected you? Still don't think it should break like that, just wondering about those scratches.

Edit: looking closer on my phone. Does that metal inside the insert look pitted?

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[Spyderjon]

........Does that metal inside the insert look pitted?

Yep, it looks pretty crystalline to me.

[XXX-er]

Yeah that ^^ broken pin happened to a local bro up here, new last year but still on warranty, using salomon mtn labs, big guy at 225 but a fairly mellow skier, ski bum type who skis a lot using them for front/side/back country

the marker dealer fixed him up with warranty pretty quick

[goldengarbageman]

So this happened to my friend a week ago...



Second time out on the bindings, we mounted them ourselves. At the resort, he knocked a tree with the back of his skis and the heel piece exploded as shown. I was worried it was our mount, but the rail was intact so it wasn't that. Luckily the store is sending a replacement no questions asked, but still...

Anyone know something like this to happen? It wasn't a big hit on the binding (he stayed on his feet attached to the skis), so my only theory is there was already a weakness in them.

I had this happen to me a couple weeks ago, and I have also had the top part of the heel piece sheer off at the pivot. Both times with no injury, but a little bit of down time waiting for a replacement heel.

I should say that I am probably using them a little harder than they are intended for. I'm 60% inbounds and I'm 200lbs, and I am skiing them like an alpine binding. I am definitely keeping an eye out for a cheap set of Marker Jesters to replace as my inbound binding and move the Kingpins to my BC binding. All this said, I have skied the Kingpins for two years and hit some pretty large airs with no prerelease or blowups. The times they have broken were skiing firm, rough, ridge traverses at KH at speed.

[Vitamin I]

...Am I an idiot? Should I swallow my pride and pick up a pair of used Dukes from my retarded cousin, Beelo? Or risk life & limb for the sake of vanity?...

...F*cker let me loose in the middle of a jump turn Billygoating down a small cliffband. Ended up going for a ride over the falls, luckily nothing hurt but my pride...

Well, thanks for guinea-pigging it for us. Looks like "case closed", at least for bigger guys like me.
Be safe.

.

[Huskier]

Well, thanks for guinea-pigging it for us. Looks like "case closed", at least for bigger guys like me.
Be safe.

.

Yup. I'm 6'2 / 180 FWIW, definitely couldn't see this as a 'go-fast & drop things' option for either myself or anyone larger. 13's? eh, mayyyyybe. Still Def not ideal

[waxoff]

If anyone is interested in the outcome of skiing an admittedly underpowered binding in consequential in-bounds terrain, here ya go:

F*cker let me loose in the middle of a jump turn Billygoating down a small cliffband. Ended up going for a ride over the falls, luckily nothing hurt but my pride. I'm well aware of the pin-fall-out problem, but on closer inspection this looks like the metal straight up sheared. Mfg defect?

This failure has a lot of signs pointing in the direction of this being a fatigue failure. My take is that the fatigue has worked its way down from the initiation point (arrow). I'd be interested to see if the pin has a small radius fillet or similar feature in this location. If too small a radius they will act as stress concentration factor and contribute to the start of a fatigue, initially creating a crack which will be working its way into the pin. The fact that the fatigued area is larger on top than on the bottom makes sense, since the load from the skier is primarily supported in this direction.

Does anybody have (a pic of) a complete pin only, that has come loose without breaking, separated from the "golden arm"??

The "chrystalline" section (circled) is just the final fracture and little focus should be given to this area. The interesting part is the initiation point. As said earlier, a too small radius fillet, an inclusion or other metal defect or manufacturing tool marks in this area is likely the key to a failure like this one.

Edit; It would also be of interest to learn what measures Marker took in order to address the problem with the pins coming loose in the early production runs. It is not impossible that something connected to this failure type could have been introduced then, e.g. tool marks or pin redesign. This is however only my speculation at this stage I know, but color me curious...

[Judo Chop!]

how's everyone feeling on the ski-ability of their kingpins?

I have two pairs of these on a couple sets of skis. I've had a few pre-releases (forward, heels release vertically) on some landings lately, which actually surprised me. I was maybe slightly forward when I landed each of them, but I really didn't expect to come out.
Does anyone run higher DINs on these than their alpine bindings? I'm already a little over 12.

Honestly, I've been missing my old beast16's. will probably replace with Shifts.