Kingpin charging

[burrito]

I️ have about 1.5 seasons on Kingpin + Moment Exit World. I️ may have inadvertently saved myself some knee trouble with such a floppy ski that I️ rarely use on resort days. One thing I️ have noticed is that I️ need to run my DINs higher on the Kingpins than I️ do on my resort bindings (Jester Pros.) I have a pretty colorful history of breaking every binding I’ve owned over the past 15 years or so (except for the Jesters - thanks Marker) and at first ran them 1-2 points lower than normal to try to avoid exploding a $600+ investment. They’ve since creeped up a point higher than I️ normally run. More afraid of breaking them, but less afraid of a pre-release.

[smooth operator]

I've been sort of A/B testing the feel of Kingpin 13s compared to P18s this early season. I have 10 days touring on 193 Volkl Shiros, with Kingpin 13s and Lange 130 XT Freetours, and 2 days inbounds on a differently year pair of 193 Volkl Shiros with P18s and Lange RS 140s. I'm averaging 2-3k feet of downhill pow on the touring days (with associated walking up hill), and more runs then I can count inbounds at Crystal Mt on this past Thursday and Friday (all soft snow, varying in softness and density since it is the PNW).

Me: 32, 6ft 4in, 200 with out gear, tends to keep my feet on the ground but am comfortable with up to 10 ft drops

I've been getting back from touring and my knees ache, it's a soreness below the knee cap in the front of the knee. I initially noticed it after the 3rd or 4th day touring, and started paying attention to if it appeared on the skin track or after skiing. It definitely is slightly prevalent when we finish skinning, but not to the point where I'm forced to sit down, as it is after skiing. I initially thought it might be due to the skin tracks being off camber combined with wide skis (119mm) introducing a torque on my knee, but I didn't notice it on the way up.

On the other hand, I did not feel any of the similar soreness or pain in my knees during or after 2 days charging around Crystal on Shiros with P18s. My knees felt fine, my legs on the other hand were screaming 'wtf slow down you asshole, it's only November!' Haha

I did spend a month only skiing Kingpins mounted to 193 Blizzard Scouts and Dynafit TLT6Ps a few March's ago, and I don't recall any of the similar knee pain. I'm curious as to if it's due to the softer boot, or my legs being in late spring condition, not early fall condition.

Now this is just my very rudimentary experiment. I am going to pay closer attention to how my knees feel as the season goes on. If the knee pain doesn't go away as my legs get stronger over the winter, there may very well be 2 sets of Kingpins for sale on here.

In summary, I ski hard and I don't recommend the Kingpin for charging. I sort of forget how this started, but if you want one ski to charge inbounds and tour on, get Dukes or CAST.

Just as a first thought that pops into my mind when reading this: Have you compared the ramp of the various boot/binding combo's?

[skibrd]

Just as a first thought that pops into my mind when reading this: Have you compared the ramp of the various boot/binding combo's?

Not yet!! I'll measure it when I get home on Wednesday.

[Vitamin I]

How much does Sammy C weigh?

I am a nerd who archives data like that.

Not sure what year this is from, but my notes say:
Sammy Carlson 5'8" 140 lbs

I recall getting excited at first when Hoji started successfully subjecting tech bindings to high impact landings on film. ...But then I realized I'm 6'2" with bodyweight that varies within 210-230 lbs, and Hoji is only 5'8" 152 lbs (from 2017). So, I won't trust tech bindings until I see enough big dudes guinea pig them for me.

Tiny skiers have a few advantages offpiste. Just look at Candide Thovex (5'6" 120 lbs, not sure which year). When his lightweight body sprays even light powder to the left, his body actually shoots off to the right FAST. (Similar for his super-quick speed checks.) And when he launches any jump/drop, it looks even more huge on film because he has more 5'6" body-lengths of air under him, compared to a tall/big skier who has fewer of his own body-lengths of air appearing on film under him. Add Candide's steezy mid-air tucks/retracted landing gear, and the air beneath him looks even bigger.

Clearly I should lose weight down to the 185-200 lbs range, to be more like some of the taller pros: Cody, Macintosh, Bode, Russ Henshaw, shoutout to Micah Black, etc.

.

[Skidog]

I am a nerd who archives data like that.

Not sure what year this is from, but my notes say:
Sammy Carlson 5'8" 140 lbs

I recall getting excited at first when Hoji started successfully subjecting tech bindings to high impact landings on film. ...But then I realized I'm 6'2" with bodyweight that varies within 210-230 lbs, and Hoji is only 5'8" 152 lbs (from 2017). So, I won't trust tech bindings until I see enough big dudes guinea pig them for me.

Tiny skiers have a few advantages offpiste. Just look at Candide Thovex (5'6" 120 lbs, not sure which year). When his lightweight body sprays even light powder to the left, his body actually shoots off to the right FAST. (Similar for his super-quick speed checks.) And when he launches any jump/drop, it looks even more huge on film because he has more 5'6" body-lengths of air under him, compared to a tall/big skier who has fewer of his own body-lengths of air appearing on film under him. Add Candide's steezy mid-air tucks/retracted landing gear, and the air beneath him looks even bigger.

Clearly I should lose weight down to the 185-200 lbs range, to be more like some of the taller pros: Cody, Macintosh, Bode, Russ Henshaw, shoutout to Micah Black, etc.

.

Cody is beating on salomons tech bindings but I think mostly bc not inbounds.

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[Bronco]

I've been getting back from touring and my knees ache, it's a soreness below the knee cap in the front of the knee. I initially noticed it after the 3rd or 4th day touring, and started paying attention to if it appeared on the skin track or after skiing. It definitely is slightly prevalent when we finish skinning, but not to the point where I'm forced to sit down, as it is after skiing. I initially thought it might be due to the skin tracks being off camber combined with wide skis (119mm) introducing a torque on my knee, but I didn't notice it on the way up.

Sounds to me like a relatively heavy setup for touring. Could be your early season knees just getting used to dragging the weight up the skin track?

[TahoeJ]

Sounds to me like a relatively heavy setup for touring. Could be your early season knees just getting used to dragging the weight up the skin track?

That was my take on it too. Kind of comparing apples to oranges when you're touring on one binding and not the other and applying your experience to the downhill.

[skibrd]

Sounds to me like a relatively heavy setup for touring. Could be your early season knees just getting used to dragging the weight up the skin track?

It is possible my knees just are not used to that weight yet, and the thought had crossed my mind, but it did get worse as I toured more. I'm also on the ice 5-6 days a week coaching and playing hockey, which has never been easy on my body. I plan on keeping a pulse in how my knees feel as the season goes on.

[skibrd]

That was my take on it too. Kind of comparing apples to oranges when you're touring on one binding and not the other and applying your experience to the downhill.

Ok, I'll put CAST plates on the Shiros with P18s and go touring a few times and report back. Sort of feels like homework I might like since it involves skiing powder!!

[TahoeJ]

I mean, I don't disagree that the kingpin tech toe is going to be harder on your legs than any regular DH binding... it was just a small point.

[skibrd]

I mean, I don't disagree that the kingpin tech toe is going to be harder on your legs than any regular DH binding... it was just a small point.

It's a great point to make and I don't see it as a disagreement. I need to figure out which I like and why because I'd like to simplify my quiver eventually...

[skibum93]

I am a nerd who archives data like that.

Not sure what year this is from, but my notes say:
Sammy Carlson 5'8" 140 lbs

I recall getting excited at first when Hoji started successfully subjecting tech bindings to high impact landings on film. ...But then I realized I'm 6'2" with bodyweight that varies within 210-230 lbs, and Hoji is only 5'8" 152 lbs (from 2017). So, I won't trust tech bindings until I see enough big dudes guinea pig them for me.

Tiny skiers have a few advantages offpiste. Just look at Candide Thovex (5'6" 120 lbs, not sure which year). When his lightweight body sprays even light powder to the left, his body actually shoots off to the right FAST. (Similar for his super-quick speed checks.) And when he launches any jump/drop, it looks even more huge on film because he has more 5'6" body-lengths of air under him, compared to a tall/big skier who has fewer of his own body-lengths of air appearing on film under him. Add Candide's steezy mid-air tucks/retracted landing gear, and the air beneath him looks even bigger.

Clearly I should lose weight down to the 185-200 lbs range, to be more like some of the taller pros: Cody, Macintosh, Bode, Russ Henshaw, shoutout to Micah Black, etc.

.

Where do you get your skier weight stats?

[Vitamin I]

Where do you get your skier weight stats?

Different sources for different athletes. No idea how accurate any of it is. You know...a competition event might report height/weight of some competitors, or an athlete might tell his height/weight in an interview, etc. Plus athletes' bodies change over time. Like Daron Rahlves' WorldCup body was different from his later SkierCross body and freeriding body in TGR & MSP films, etc.

.

[Aus George]

I've been sort of A/B testing the feel of Kingpin 13s compared to P18s this early season. I have 10 days touring on 193 Volkl Shiros, with Kingpin 13s and Lange 130 XT Freetours, and 2 days inbounds on a differently year pair of 193 Volkl Shiros with P18s and Lange RS 140s. I'm averaging 2-3k feet of downhill pow on the touring days (with associated walking up hill), and more runs then I can count inbounds at Crystal Mt on this past Thursday and Friday (all soft snow, varying in softness and density since it is the PNW).

Me: 32, 6ft 4in, 200 with out gear, tends to keep my feet on the ground but am comfortable with up to 10 ft drops

I've been getting back from touring and my knees ache, it's a soreness below the knee cap in the front of the knee. I initially noticed it after the 3rd or 4th day touring, and started paying attention to if it appeared on the skin track or after skiing. It definitely is slightly prevalent when we finish skinning, but not to the point where I'm forced to sit down, as it is after skiing. I initially thought it might be due to the skin tracks being off camber combined with wide skis (119mm) introducing a torque on my knee, but I didn't notice it on the way up.

On the other hand, I did not feel any of the similar soreness or pain in my knees during or after 2 days charging around Crystal on Shiros with P18s. My knees felt fine, my legs on the other hand were screaming 'wtf slow down you asshole, it's only November!' Haha

I did spend a month only skiing Kingpins mounted to 193 Blizzard Scouts and Dynafit TLT6Ps a few March's ago, and I don't recall any of the similar knee pain. I'm curious as to if it's due to the softer boot, or my legs being in late spring condition, not early fall condition.

Now this is just my very rudimentary experiment. I am going to pay closer attention to how my knees feel as the season goes on. If the knee pain doesn't go away as my legs get stronger over the winter, there may very well be 2 sets of Kingpins for sale on here.

In summary, I ski hard and I don't recommend the Kingpin for charging. I sort of forget how this started, but if you want one ski to charge inbounds and tour on, get Dukes or CAST.

I have the same problem, similar age/weight. I use frame bindings though... I put it down to the weight. Which makes me think a super light touring set up is the go. Kingpin "should" really be better as (for me at least) it's 100% skinning, the skiing is the easy part. In the resort on my look 14's no knee pain at all but im not lifting my leg with heaps of weight attached with each step.

[skiJ]

I've been sort of A/B testing the feel of Kingpin 13s compared to P18s this early season. I have 10 days touring on 193 Volkl Shiros, with Kingpin 13s and Lange 130 XT Freetours, and 2 days inbounds on a differently year pair of 193 Volkl Shiros with P18s and Lange RS 140s. I'm averaging 2-3k feet of downhill pow on the touring days (with associated walking up hill), and more runs then I can count inbounds at Crystal Mt on this past Thursday and Friday (all soft snow, varying in softness and density since it is the PNW).

Me: 32, 6ft 4in, 200 with out gear, tends to keep my feet on the ground but am comfortable with up to 10 ft drops

I've been getting back from touring and my knees ache, it's a soreness below the knee cap in the front of the knee. I initially noticed it after the 3rd or 4th day touring, and started paying attention to if it appeared on the skin track or after skiing. It definitely is slightly prevalent when we finish skinning, but not to the point where I'm forced to sit down, as it is after skiing. I initially thought it might be due to the skin tracks being off camber combined with wide skis (119mm) introducing a torque on my knee, but I didn't notice it on the way up.

On the other hand, I did not feel any of the similar soreness or pain in my knees during or after 2 days charging around Crystal on Shiros with P18s. My knees felt fine, my legs on the other hand were screaming 'wtf slow down you asshole, it's only November!' Haha

I did spend a month only skiing Kingpins mounted to 193 Blizzard Scouts and Dynafit TLT6Ps a few March's ago, and I don't recall any of the similar knee pain. I'm curious as to if it's due to the softer boot, or my legs being in late spring condition, not early fall condition.

Now this is just my very rudimentary experiment. I am going to pay closer attention to how my knees feel as the season goes on. If the knee pain doesn't go away as my legs get stronger over the winter, there may very well be 2 sets of Kingpins for sale on here.

In summary, I ski hard and I don't recommend the Kingpin for charging. I sort of forget how this started, but if you want one ski to charge inbounds and tour on, get Dukes or CAST.

unsolicited . . . it reads to me like the issue is the skinning , not the Down.

thirty-two years of age , you may begin to experience things like chondromalacia and it's associated inflammation of the cartilage on the backside of the patella...
it is the range of motion that contributes to the inflammation - hence, you don't experience it while spinning laps...

neoprene knee sleeves , I wrap mine... ibuprofen or naprosen --

I bet you will continue to have discomfort with touring regardless of binding...
" 2-3k " aint shabby touring. and Thanks for coaching the kids (hockey)


{ shrug ] tj

[kootenayskier]

Kingpins provide additional retention (compared to standard tech heels) for aggressive skiing in the backcountry, and/or a limited amount of in-bounds charging before heading out, and they’re fine as a do it all binding for smooth low mileage skiers, but they’re just not going to provide the same quality of release, “feel”, or durability for regular inbounds charging.

[rod9301]

Sounds to me like a relatively heavy setup for touring. Could be your early season knees just getting used to dragging the weight up the skin track?

Below the knee cap is where the patellar tendon attaches.

Generally, if your quads are not strong enough, you put more pressure on the tendon. Or a shock could cause it.

But skinning doesn't use your quads much, more butt muscles.

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[skibrd]

unsolicited . . . it reads to me like the issue is the skinning , not the Down.

thirty-two years of age , you may begin to experience things like chondromalacia and it's associated inflammation of the cartilage on the backside of the patella...
it is the range of motion that contributes to the inflammation - hence, you don't experience it while spinning laps...

neoprene knee sleeves , I wrap mine... ibuprofen or naprosen --

I bet you will continue to have discomfort with touring regardless of binding...
" 2-3k " aint shabby touring. and Thanks for coaching the kids (hockey)


{ shrug ] tj

Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a shot! What's the worst that can happen?

More squats are on the schedule too, those always help

[Nevada29er]

I've been sort of A/B testing the feel of Kingpin 13s compared to P18s this early season. I have 10 days touring on 193 Volkl Shiros, with Kingpin 13s and Lange 130 XT Freetours, and 2 days inbounds on a differently year pair of 193 Volkl Shiros with P18s and Lange RS 140s. I'm averaging 2-3k feet of downhill pow on the touring days (with associated walking up hill), and more runs then I can count inbounds at Crystal Mt on this past Thursday and Friday (all soft snow, varying in softness and density since it is the PNW).

Me: 32, 6ft 4in, 200 with out gear, tends to keep my feet on the ground but am comfortable with up to 10 ft drops

I've been getting back from touring and my knees ache, it's a soreness below the knee cap in the front of the knee. I initially noticed it after the 3rd or 4th day touring, and started paying attention to if it appeared on the skin track or after skiing. It definitely is slightly prevalent when we finish skinning, but not to the point where I'm forced to sit down, as it is after skiing. I initially thought it might be due to the skin tracks being off camber combined with wide skis (119mm) introducing a torque on my knee, but I didn't notice it on the way up.

On the other hand, I did not feel any of the similar soreness or pain in my knees during or after 2 days charging around Crystal on Shiros with P18s. My knees felt fine, my legs on the other hand were screaming 'wtf slow down you asshole, it's only November!' Haha

I did spend a month only skiing Kingpins mounted to 193 Blizzard Scouts and Dynafit TLT6Ps a few March's ago, and I don't recall any of the similar knee pain. I'm curious as to if it's due to the softer boot, or my legs being in late spring condition, not early fall condition.

Now this is just my very rudimentary experiment. I am going to pay closer attention to how my knees feel as the season goes on. If the knee pain doesn't go away as my legs get stronger over the winter, there may very well be 2 sets of Kingpins for sale on here.

Wide skis such as your Shiros put a lot of torque on the knees during turning (bases not flat) and off camber skin tracks where you need to roll your ankle to try to maintain traction. I would try a narrower setup and see if that helps.

[creaky fossil]

I've been getting back from touring and my knees ache, it's a soreness below the knee cap in the front of the knee. I initially noticed it after the 3rd or 4th day touring, and started paying attention to if it appeared on the skin track or after skiing. It definitely is slightly prevalent when we finish skinning, but not to the point where I'm forced to sit down, as it is after skiing. I initially thought it might be due to the skin tracks being off camber combined with wide skis (119mm) introducing a torque on my knee, but I didn't notice it on the way up.

I'm not an MD nor a PT but I've wrecked both knees & had both fixed, been through lots of PT. What you're describing sounds like chondromalacia or scar tissue buildup annoying the kneecap's easy glide. I think someone else mentioned it above.

I got it because patellar grafts (ACL recon) sometimes leave excess scar tissue formation, which messes with kneecap glide. My PT for it was to sit with legs flat, torso upright, legs fully relaxed -- then glide the kneecap left to right/right to left, gently, perpendicular to the patellar tendon's running direction. PTs have some kind of name for it, "transverse massage" or something like that. That's what I did, but your knee is your knee and it may be different.

I'd also look at ramp angle & delta differences, but those tend to affect a sense of "home base" and feeling in balance there.

Wide-waisted skis + tech bindings definitely = more torque on knee on sidehills with tiny purchase. If your knee's alignment over your foot is off (i.e., you should be canted), it will be much worse.

[XXX-er]

I was skiing this weekend with a local bro, he is a fairly big guy at 220lb, he tells me he broke a pin earlier this season, it was the steel pin cracking not the arm breaking, he skis salomon all mtns, a pretty mellow guy I don't know that I would call him a hard charger

I think this is just an isolated incident perhaps a faulty pin so I am mentioning it as a data point and therefore I don't think its time to start an internet vendetta against Marker

it sounds like he still managed to more or less ski out missing the pin, the local dealer called marker and got him fixed up pretty quick with a binding swap.

[burrito]

Anyone messed around with swapping in an elastic travel toe from a different pair of pin binders? Assuming you can work out stand height, ramp angle, etc. the only sticking point I see is if the lateral DIN release on the Kingpin heel needs a static toe to function properly.

[garuda]

Maybe trab has an "elastic travel toe" but otherwise it's only the vipec/tecton toe. The vipec toe does not release with side-to-side heal movement, so the lateral release function of the kingpin heel is mooted. Lou Dawson tried it, doesn't add any value.

[burrito]

Maybe trab has an "elastic travel toe" but otherwise it's only the vipec/tecton toe. The vipec toe does not release with side-to-side heal movement, so the lateral release function of the kingpin heel is mooted. Lou Dawson tried it, doesn't add any value.

I was thinking more along the lines of a Dynafit Rotation toe.

[doebedoe]

I was thinking more along the lines of a Dynafit Rotation toe.

Dynafit rotation toe has no lateral elasticity a la the Vipec or an alpine binding. It just rotates. Which is totally unnecessary.