Personal Locator Beacons: Options besides SPOT?

[Kinnikinnick]

It was at the end of series of hypotheticals (a 2 way sat msgr user can be any sex or orientation). Someone not looking for slight in every sentence wouldn't need that explained. You took a hypothetical example as 1. personal 2. an insult. Do you think homosexuality is a bad thing or something? Sounds like you are the homophobe?

Would you like to borrow a shovel to keep digging for that humility?

Bullshit.

Why did you even have to respond? You knew I was referencing you and SCSAR, but I kept that out if it. So why did you respond?

Oh and totally not an insult. You’re the who needs a shovel to dig your rewrite.

MY BIL is gay, so I dont take kindly to that shit.

And you know you were insulting me.

Explain to me how the TalusMonkey situation ends up any different with a PLB given your protocol. You more or less dismiss them as a group policy.

There have been TENS of THOUSANDS of PLB rescues and only a few thousand Inreach rescues.

Cost? I have SAR insurance with my fishing license, so you are covered.

Put lives first, please.

But yeah have to get an Inreach since you wont respond without specifics.


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[summit]

Why did you even have to respond?

Why would I not respond in a friendly and constructive manner to a discussion point you brought to this thread on PLBs?

And you know you were insulting me.

Stop posting on TGR if you cannot tell the difference between a friendly and hypothetical post and an insult.

You are a JONG. <-This is an insult, just to be clear.

A bunch of misrepresentations in an attempt to be inflammatory

Seek professional help.

[Kinnikinnick]

Bullshit

Tminus X until PLB fatality due to no real response fromSCSAR


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[east or bust]

I have an InReach mini. It’s definitely more than I need functionality wise but it’s worked out well.

I had it on and tracking for most of the 4 days of the lake powell excursion and still had over 40% battery when all was said and done. Haven’t used texting yet. The weather report feature is awesome.

[Kinnikinnick]

Calling ACR Monday to see what they think of this.

How about a simple apology for the offensive attempt at insulting me by implying that I am a homosexual?

[summit]

Calling ACR Monday to see what they think of this.

Since you just make shit up to fit your twisted perception, even when you've been told the opposite repeatedly, I imagine they'll be sympathetic until you misinterpret something they say and go on another rant.

I sincerely hope you call a counselor.

How about a simple apology for the insult?

No apologies for things that never happened. But you are welcome to apologize for the deluge of misrepresentations and inflammatory insinuations you've made.

[BCMtnHound]

I have an InReach mini. It’s definitely more than I need functionality wise but it’s worked out well.

I had it on and tracking for most of the 4 days of the lake powell excursion and still had over 40% battery when all was said and done. Haven’t used texting yet. The weather report feature is awesome.

Yup. I like mine. Especially when I give it to my wife when she goes out biking with friends - cell coverage is spotty here - prepared unlimited messages rock. And I carry it for work and SAR - I find the hardware and subscription price worth it.

[Kinnikinnick]

.


No apologies.

OK

Your choice


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[Cruiser]

That escalated quickly!

[zartagen]

Kinikinick, you took summit's hypothetical completely out of context and doubled down when it was pointed out that your interpretation was wrong. As I read it, a female was the one in the bc, well, ladies can ski in the backcountry, too. But you managed to instead show your implicit bias (sexism) in thinking it was homophobic.

And when confronted with the reality that SAR manages its resources when confronted with an unknown, you claim they have no humanity. What about personal accountability? If you are in the backcountry, that PLB should be your absolute last resort (self rescue > partner rescue > nearby parties > SAR). Unfortunately, other people don't treat it that way, so we are in the situation we have now: with many false alarms.

Satellite two-way communication exists. It is the superior choice if you want a chance of being rescued if you fuck up in the backcountry. So you could buck up and buy one, or belly ache about the equivalent of not having uber on your flip phone.

[Kinnikinnick]

Kinikinick, you took summit's hypothetical completely out of context and doubled down when it was pointed out that your interpretation was wrong. As I read it, a female was the one in the bc, well, ladies can ski in the backcountry, too. But you managed to instead show your implicit bias (sexism) in thinking it was homophobic.

And when confronted with the reality that SAR manages its resources when confronted with an unknown, you claim they have no humanity. What about personal accountability? If you are in the backcountry, that PLB should be your absolute last resort (self rescue > partner rescue > nearby parties > SAR). Unfortunately, other people don't treat it that way, so we are in the situation we have now: with many false alarms.

Satellite two-way communication exists. It is the superior choice if you want a chance of being rescued if you fuck up in the backcountry. So you could buck up and buy one, or belly ache about the equivalent of not having uber on your flip phone.

Come on. His paragraph used “you” over and over. Clearly referring to me. He would have used she if referring to hypothetical female.
But good to see you join in as his dance partner.

If you read my original post, you’d see that before Summit HAD to jump in and throw his hypothetical that somehow only used “you” but theoretically referred to a female that he was neither communicating with nor referenced in any way - yeah BS - you’d see that I made no editorial reference to SCSAR, nor argued my view on it. A PSA, FYI, more or less exactly what you said.

Then came captain know it all with his “text your boyfriend”. “YOUR”. If he meant a woman it would have been “her”

He and his have been a dick to me an others in multiple ways over the years, so I am done with his weasel fuckness. So I unleashed my opinion about their defacto protocol.

If you activated a PLB miles away in The Alps, what would happen?

If you activated a PLB in New Zealand what would happen?

But yeah I believe they have professional SAR, whereas here its mostly amateur, so no surprise that the protocol becomes, well amateurish.


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[Kinnikinnick]

...

[m2711c]

This show is funny.

[summit]

The details of a recent PLB activation are really not all that relevant to the larger discussion, but here it was:
* PLB was activated at night deep in a wilderness zone at very high altitude.
* 2 hour delay before SAR was notified about the PLB signal (for those who don't know, signals are not always instantly registered by the sats, and then are passed through various sites before they filter down to local volunteer SAR)
* Coordinates plotted an odd location (turns out the location was off)
* Beacon owners' registered contacts weren't reachable
* The beacon owner's vehicle was not at any of the possible THs
* No travel plan left
* Air resource requests found no helicopter was available for high mountain operations until late morning
* Ground teams were sent in
* The PLB party felt better and began hiking out during the night
* The ground teams encountered the party hiking out before a helicopter became available
* All was well

Kinikinick had nothing to do with the incident, but began MMQBing on social media about how SAR needs to have helicopters flying the moment any PLB gets punched. He was not nice about it. At least 5 people carried on a patient conversation with Kinik explaining extensively some of the details about risk/cost/benefit/uncertainty (including limited resources, occupying and thus denying those resources for other uses, and the accident risk involved in using helos) that drive the case by case decision making for each rescue. The point was he couldn't count on an instant helicopter just because he had a PLB, and that 2 way communication aids the ability to asses rescue needs Including helicopters. I then heard about all of the hubbub.

Kinik posted a twisted summary here. I put two and two together as to who he was and tried to steer the discussion positive. He misinterpreted again and then went off the deep end posting just caustic alternate reality interpretations as you've seen.

All this because he couldn't get a promise that the SOS button on his PLB was a guaranteed instant helicopter summoning wand to save him from Magic Mountain when the Disneyland ride breaks down.

[summit]

Europe has paid SAR. There are county (not country) sized regions in Europe that hold more helicopters for SAR use, than there are in the entire state of Colorado. This is due to the very dense concentration of population and mountains, plus tax allocations make it economical.

US has volunteer SAR with few exceptions. The volunteers are typically paid professionals in related fields, medics, ski patrol, forest service, national guard, ski guides, rock guides, nurses, snowmobile guides, Avalanche forecasters, outdoor instructors, firefighters, law enforcement, dog handlers, radio techs, retired special forces, emergency managers, river guides... And unrelated too from engineers to teachers to tow truck drivers. Trhy train and sacrifice in a way that is far from amateur.

Almost all US helicopters that get used for SAR only do so as a secondary role. The primary role of the helos is something else, typically an air ambulance. So, if you use one for SAR, it can't do the other mission.

If taxpayers wanted to support a Euro system here, that would be swell. We can talk about having dedicated multimilliondollar machines that cost $1000+ per hour to operate, crews to operate and maintain, and then a cadre of paid rescuers, well that's great. The utilization rate will be low.

Kinik, the people I talked to who know you in person say you are chill in person. Until you have spent nearly two decades sacrificing time, money, and effort to train and rescue people for free, I won't put too much stock in your assessment. It is just too clear you have no clue but are confident that you have a deep understanding so you won't listen to anyone who does have a clue. But, I will wager you wouldn't be such a dick in person.

[Kinnikinnick]

I dont want a promise of a helicopter, but questioned why not deployed in this case.

All any if you had to say was “no helicopter available.” That would have explained it but Instead I was condescended to and attacked by SCSAR and lackeys with “ you arent entitled to”.
“Cant guarantee”. Etc. ‘unless you’re in SAR shutup sort of stuff. How dare I question stuff.

And then all this extra stuff like their car, making contact with their contacts, don’t know, etc. None of it matter if its a compound fracture and they’re bleeding out. SAR is either coming forthwith, or not.
- oh he went in Bobs car doeant matter
- his friend Jed knows he’s in the Gore doesnt matter
- etc

Yeah sounds like too many people activating PLBs for not life or death so muddys the waters.

If the fucking Heli was not there, it was not there. This was weeks ago, I left town and came back to pick up the thread to understand the implications myself. ScsAR went straight to defensive mode again. Finally I got the info I needed that No, a PLB won’t necessarily be treated seriously because if the communication issues.

I came here and posted what I learned in a way that didnt refer to SCSAR in any way. But you came in blasting so it blew in your face.

BS on not meaning the homo thing. This is a classic TGR formula: make a homosexual insult and then say “what are you homophobic?” Thats what you did precisely. I took great offense because of my gay family members. And don’t hide behind poor grammar or that BS. You are clearly one of the more articulate of this lot, so you knew precisely what you were jibing.

No Heli? That wasnt ever said as far as I can remember. Ot course they butthurtedly banned me from scsar so I cant even go back and reread everything.





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[hafjell]

BCMTNHound, and others who are using the Mini: Do you ever wish you had splurged for the Explorer? In the summers, I think I'd leave the Explorer at home on a lot/most of my runs. In the winter with the pack, I don't think I'd care about the size or the extra 4 oz. Thoughts?

[BCMtnHound]

BCMTNHound, and others who are using the Mini: Do you ever wish you had splurged for the Explorer? In the summers, I think I'd leave the Explorer at home on a lot/most of my runs. In the winter with the pack, I don't think I'd care about the size or the extra 4 oz. Thoughts?

If you want your inReach to have more functions as a navigational tool, then sure, the Explorer has more functionality with regards to maps and sensors. I pair my mini with a smartphone or ipad sometimes for work, mostly for the ease in sms messaging though. I've used a garmin 76csx for mapping and orienteering work for years, but far prefer my issued ipad for the screen size when doing detailed map work - that small garmin screen is getting harder and harder to use as my eyes get older.

FWIW, my backcountry recreation still is done largely on good old-fashioned paper maps, stored in a waterproof pouch, paired with a silva ranger compass (I have access to provincial GIS data, an ArcGIS license, and a fullsized plotter as well). I record tracks and waypoint more for use back home, or in emergency, and for this the mini is sufficient. But I also haven't compared the old 12channel 76csx, with either the mini or explorer (no one can tell me how many birds the inReach devices can simultaneously track) to see how accurate they track or record waypoints. Coming from the old professional Trimble environment, I take Garmin's published accuracy statements with a big grain of salt.

[tang]

Has anyone tried or investigated the new Zoleo device?

Yes, recently got one. Quick summary...
- Good price ($199)
- Good plan - $20/mo for 25 messages (incl weather) and 50 cents/message if you go over, and you can suspend for any month for $4/mo
- All very intuitive
- You use for iphone for messaging other than SOS and an "ok" msg + lat/long which you can send direct from the device
- The messaging app works like texting, and defaults to wifi/cell if coverage is available and then sat if not
- Uses Iridium, so works globally (vs either garmin or spot which I think is just lower 48)
- Only nit is that I wish it had an option to send lat/long to friends/family every say 1 hr - I give it to my daughter when she goes out on adventures (like 14ers) and would be nice to see a location on her, especially if running late... but instead could just send her a msg through the app, but she'd need to check it. And all of that vice versa if I'm out in the hinterlands
Outside gave it a good review - https://www.outsideonline.com/241479...nicator-review

[BCMtnHound]

Uses Iridium, so works globally (vs either garmin or spot which I think is just lower 48)

Garmin also uses Iridium to communicate. SPOT uses Globalstar. Iridium and Globalstar each have their pros and cons as they are configured differently. I prefer iridium. AFAIK, its the location of the call centre receiving your SOS that is the consideration when travelling internationally, not whether your device can find a receptive satellite as both systems are global.

Don't confuse the communication system with the GPS system. The NA built GPS satellite system is NAVSTAR, Russia has GLONASS, China has their own, and Europe is building one as well. Some devices can access GLONASS in addition to our NAVSTAR. Again, these GPS systems are global, though some areas/systems have better coverage than others (i.e. the arctic vs the mid latitudes)

[tang]

^interesting and helpful, thx

[east or bust]

BCMTNHound, and others who are using the Mini: Do you ever wish you had splurged for the Explorer? In the summers, I think I'd leave the Explorer at home on a lot/most of my runs. In the winter with the pack, I don't think I'd care about the size or the extra 4 oz. Thoughts?

I’ve never had the desire for more than what the mini offers. Like BCMTNH I use paper maps and feel like the explorer is a bit too large for the role it plays.

[summit]

AFAIK all the 2 way say messenger SOS messages route direct to GEOS IERCC first. GEOS then figures out where to route after that.

[BCMtnHound]

AFAIK all the 2 way say messenger SOS messages route direct to GEOS IERCC first. GEOS then figures out where to route after that.

My understanding as well. Physical location somewhere in Texas. I've no idea how they would route the SOS call outside of NA.

Here in BC, the IERCC contacts the Emergency Coordination Centre, that then refers the incident to a tasking agency - usually the RCMP (or Fed Parks, Coroner, BC Ambulance). Maritime goes to coast guard, aviation to the closest Armed Forces base - in BC this is usually out of CFB Comox. It's the tasking agency that activates the local ground-based SAR. If the conversation between the tasking agency and GSAR determine from the available information the response merits it, the call goes to the big bird at CFB Comox.

[MiddleOfNight]

Just logging back in after a while:: Something else that occurred to me, was the value of the InReach in making comm's for/on behalf of other people not in your group.
i.e. - Hey I'm going to be super late due to losing a ski, can you message my friend to let them know I'm ok, I'll just be late - Don't call a rescue for me?
Or when a samaritan comes across someone who is hurt, not desperately, but needs help getting out - they can deliver a personal message with location data and details, then continue on their way - something less workable with non-two-way device.
And of course, the 'holy crap' situations you stumble upon, where just pushing SOS fails to truly capture the gravity of the situation. This just happened the other day on a rescue - a samaritan w inReach came by, gave us details which upped the ante considerably, with a good outcome.

I've also had a couple success stories where people I know are going out in an area where someone might be lost - show them a pic of lost person, given them my number, and told them to inReach me if they see them -- and they have!
Two way comm's have some benefits for others I guess is my point.


In CO all SAR is under the Sheriff (I think by statute?) and sometimes deploying of certain resources (air resources) just requires satisfying a higher standard. It's just an easier sell to those folks if we have more details to articulate the need. Personal experience: bird with a rotor strike on a tree during a mission. Difficult questions were asked. Right or wrong, the details provided by two way comm's absolutely do make a difference in the justification of the resource. Use of air resources is getting much more common, and in large part it's appropriate. But we still do a lot the old fashioned way - which is also appropriate in those cases.

Also, not all air resources are the same: some resources won't deploy unless certain requirements are met (think HAATS). So absent these critical details, that bird doesn't fly regardless of individual agency policy.

I know I'm a inReach fanboy, but they really are the best tool for this purpose imo, overall superior to the others we've tried.
Still no substitute for preparedness and map-reading and good decision making, but I like to have it in my toolbox.