What Beacon now?

[jono]

Please report back after you do -- would love to read this report, especially if you have the new Mammut offerings in the mix. Love my Pulse Barryvox, but wife might need an upgrade soon.

You have a Pulse. Pulses are both good and easy to use. Get your wife a Pulse.

[detrusor]

We love our mammut pulse. Chosen for 3 reasons.

1 pretty simple to use but still full featured (not as simple as a tracker but close)

2 Tells you if there are “vitals” (senses tiny movements or something) so you can dig up the living victims first in a multiple.

3 You can upgrade the firmware. Not sure if they all do that now, at the time it was the only one.


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[auvgeek]

You have a Pulse. Pulses are both good and easy to use. Get your wife a Pulse.

Why are you assuming she can't pick a beacon herself? As it happens, my wife knows way more than me about avy safety and can buy whatever she wants. But I love my Pulse, so I'm personally am interested in how the new Mammuts perform, hence my question. As is typical of us, she's comfortable with her current gear while I'm trying to convince her the new and shiny will be better.

Not trying to jump down your throat -- just sometimes the general feeling on TGR that we men need to buy gear for the non-tech-savvy womenfolk grates on me.

[summit]

I've loved my Pulse for the last 7 years after going to it from analog.

I still have and drill on my analog occasionally. Just for fun... I ski with my Pulse.

Pulse is the shit. It is easy, reliable and performs extremely well in a variety of situations.

I'm super excited about the new Barryvox S that is replacing the Pulse this season. I've played with the prototype and hope to get my hands on the production model early season

[jono]

Why are you assuming she can't pick a beacon herself? As it happens, my wife knows way more than me about avy safety and can buy whatever she wants. But I love my Pulse, so I'm personally am interested in how the new Mammuts perform, hence my question. As is typical of us, she's comfortable with her current gear while I'm trying to convince her the new and shiny will be better.

Not trying to jump down your throat -- just sometimes the general feeling on TGR that we men need to buy gear for the non-tech-savvy womenfolk grates on me.

I was assuming that you likely ski together and might benefit from shared knowledge of like equipment. If she's teaching you or the other way around the benefit is the same.

If you hadn't mentioned the Pulse specifically I might not have said that, but the Pulse has great range, is easy to use, and is full featured. With upgradable firmware (read: minor maintenance required/possible) and the ability to communicate status of buried victims the benefit of having partners on that same piece of equipment goes up. Otherwise I'm just saying, no need to over think it if the Pulse is on your radar already. Which is why I was so succinct. Terse even. Sorry if that came off the wrong way; I've tried to be wordier, hope it helps.

[LightRanger]

^^^ Heh.

I concur that the utility of the Pulse improves when your spouse/main touring partner has one too due to proprietary heartbeat tech. If I was auvgeek, it'd be a no-brainer for a second one.

[PNWbrit]

^^^ Heh.

I concur that the utility of the Pulse improves when your spouse/main touring partner has one too due to proprietary heartbeat tech. If I was auvgeek, it'd be a no-brainer for a second one.

So when you tour with others who aren't using pulses.. they just have to assume you're not digging them out until you've dug up the Misses?

Unless everyone is wearing one the whole pulse idea makes me really uncomfortable.

Perhaps it should be an industry standard to have the feature on all beacons.. but until it is...

[auvgeek]

If I was auvgeek, it'd be a no-brainer for a second one.

Wife has taken AIARE 1-3, pro patrolled, and taught avy courses. She's practiced extensively with her current beacon. You're really saying it's obvious she should buy a now-discontinued beacon and for practice extensively with it just so we can have the same one? Especially when we don't even live in the same location at the moment and she skis a ton without me? I mean, one could argue that's the best approach, but I think it's pretty far from a "no brainer."

I'm way more comfortable with her digging me out with the one she's practiced with extensively than anything else, heartbeat technology included. IIRC, she found the advanced features of the pulse a little complicated to use but don't quote me on that. She's never expressed any interest in upgrading her beacon, but Mammut has been claiming the advanced features of the new Barryvox are more user-friendly than that on the Pulse and I was curious if that was actually the case. She might be taking some refresher courses after coming off an injury, and so I (not her) thought it might be a good time to see if there's a beacon she likes more than her current one. Plus, the Pulse is far from perfect. Mine seems little glitchy after my last firmware update and it often gets switched on in my travel bag -- can be pretty frustrating to start a trip with dead batteries.

Seems like my benign interest in the new Mammut beacons got blown way out of proportion. Think I'm gonna give TGR a rest for a bit.

[XXX-er]

I think they packed the earlier Digitals with shit you don't need and charged mo money

which is why I bought the element cuz it was just a stripped down pulse

[jono]

Wife has taken AIARE 1-3, pro patrolled, and taught avy courses. She's practiced extensively with her current beacon. You're really saying it's obvious she should buy a now-discontinued beacon and for practice extensively with it just so we can have the same one? I mean, one could argue that's the best approach, but I think it's pretty far from a "no brainer."

I'm way more comfortable with her digging me out with the one she's practiced with extensively than anything else, heartbeat technology included. IIRC, she found the advanced features of the pulse a little complicated to use but don't quote me on that. She's never expressed any interest in upgrading her beacon, but Mammut has been claiming the advanced features of the new Barryvox are more user-friendly than that on the Pulse and I was curious if that was actually the case. She might be taking some refresher courses after coming off an injury, and so I (not her) thought it might be a good time to see if there's a beacon she likes more than her current one. Plus, the Pulse is far from perfect. Mine seems little glitchy after my last firmware update and it often gets switched on in my travel bag -- can be pretty frustrating to start a trip with dead batteries.

Seems like my benign interest in the new Mammut beacons got blown way out of proportion. Think I'm gonna give TGR a rest for a bit.

In the interest of full assumption-stating, my first assumption was that there was some underlying reason driving your wife toward a new beacon. Since it appears that is not the case I would not argue against sticking with what she knows. I know that's what I want from my partners. You're future interest in something down the road seems logical, as there's (hopefully) an upgrade in everyone's future at some point, I just didn't get that from "might need."

Are you traveling with the Pulse in its regular carry case and having it switch on? Seems like that could be easily prevented by putting a little flat 'board' on top of the top button and strapping it in with the clip. Or a piece of duct tape over the side 'button.' Not that it's easy to push both flush buttons at once, with them being 90 degrees to each other, but with the safeguards already in place it seems like going to totally foolproof isn't too hard, if you're using the case.

[jono]

So when you tour with others who aren't using pulses.. they just have to assume you're not digging them out until you've dug up the Misses?

Unless everyone is wearing one the whole pulse idea makes me really uncomfortable.

Perhaps it should be an industry standard to have the feature on all beacons.. but until it is...

I look at it the exact opposite way, and we talk about this at least once a year, more if heading out with a large group. Specifically, the Pulse does not show you who is not moving/dead/unconscious, it only shows you who is known to be moving. All other victims are unknowns, regardless of which beacon they are wearing. I haven't been able to prove that the Pulse is totally reliable in sending out that signal, so I make damn sure my wife (and anyone else carrying a Pulse in a group) is aware that 'no pulse' is a piece of non-information. It means nothing. But if you do get that signal you know you are more likely looking at a live victim (who may be able to help) and unless burial depths etc. argue for something else, I'd want to dig that person out first.

[LightRanger]

Seems like my benign interest in the new Mammut beacons got blown way out of proportion. Think I'm gonna give TGR a rest for a bit.

Hah!

I see that my generalization was blown way out of proportion too. I thought the "all other factors being equal" part was implied, but apparently not.

[PNWbrit]

I look at it the exact opposite way, and we talk about this at least once a year, more if heading out with a large group. Specifically, the Pulse does not show you who is not moving/dead/unconscious, it only shows you who is known to be moving. All other victims are unknowns, regardless of which beacon they are wearing. I haven't been able to prove that the Pulse is totally reliable in sending out that signal, so I make damn sure my wife (and anyone else carrying a Pulse in a group) is aware that 'no pulse' is a piece of non-information. It means nothing. But if you do get that signal you know you are more likely looking at a live victim (who may be able to help) and unless burial depths etc. argue for something else, I'd want to dig that person out first.

I understand the theory just the idea of making the decision on who to dig up first based on who is wearing a particular type of beacon gives me the shivers... especially when it's the searcher's wife wearing that beacon.

Is there any record of the pulse function being used in a real slide?

[detrusor]

Not sure f to here is any record w the pulse. Good question. Seems most people I ski w have one.


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[covert]

I recommend the beacon with triple antennae and a marking function that looks coolest in the bar at the end of the day. The technology is all so similar, it really does boil down to personal preference.

Achieving mastery level beacon skills is easy in this day and age. No excuses. I think many would be better served by prioritizing digging, scene size-up, and tactical decision making practice.

[jono]

I understand the theory just the idea of making the decision on who to dig up first based on who is wearing a particular type of beacon gives me the shivers... especially when it's the searcher's wife wearing that beacon.

Is there any record of the pulse function being used in a real slide?

I expect it not to work and therefore the decisions to be simple, but obviously there are exceptions.

If you have two burials, one showing signs of life and one not, and the whole party knows who you're digging for (and who's waiting) based on who wore what beacon, does that present a problem? Ideally you'd hope to have an idea of who's who based on last points seen. I've never heard of anyone getting too wrapped up in the ethics implied there, although they certainly could. There is a de facto bias toward digging up the person with a Pulse first, but only when doing so is clearly the right thing to do. I'm fine with that. If it encourages people to add that function that might be a good thing (if it works well).

I do think it should be obvious that you don't prioritize a 3m burial over a 1m burial just based on this, but maybe that's your concern?

[PNWbrit]

There is a de facto bias toward digging up the person with a Pulse first

That's the slight problem that causes me to pause and think.

Unless it's an industry standard then it's not about digging up the person with a pulse.

It probably should be an industry standard.

[jono]

Unless it's an industry standard then it's not about digging up the person with a pulse.

It probably should be an industry standard.

If it works, yes it should be a standard. Not sure we're there yet, but maybe the newer stuff is getting better.

But I'm not following the logic of how it would be about anything but digging up the person with the pulse: it doesn't do anything unless a pulse is detected so it can only create that bias if digging up the person with the pulse is the goal. A standard would be better but not having one is not creating an ethical dilemma.

[johngenx]

My daughter uses the Pieps DSP Sport - the newest one, and I really like it. But, she's going to be taking her Canadian Avalanche Association Avalanche Operations Level 1, and it's not the on the recommended beacon list. The list is made up of "pro level" beacons like the Pulse, S1+, etc. So, I'm keen on seeing the new Barryvox S.

Which has been leading me to think about the pulse sensing technology and how it relates to a multiple burial scenario. I can see how, even if everyone is wearing pulse equipped beacons, it might influence the decision making process in a way that might not make sense.

Suppose I have two burials. One is 1.5M down and has no pulse. The other is 2.5M down and is reading a pulse. Is the first victim (1.5M down) really not breathing? Or is their beacon just shifted in such a way that the sensor isn't being tripped? Avalanches are violent events and someone's beacon might be with them, but not up against their body in such a way as to trigger the sensor.

Without any of the quandary introduced by the pulse sensor, of course we dig the 1.5M victim first. We stand a much greater chance of having a survivour thanks to the shorter time required to dig the shallower buried victim. If we let the pulse sensor into the equation, do we dig the deeper victim? I would still dig the shallower victim, so that means the pulse tech isn't entering into my decision making, so then I have to wonder how useful it is.

There is another factor that was mentioned above, and that's one of you knowing who is who in a multiple burial situation. If my daughter (who is one of my regular skiing partners) is wearing a pulse sensing beacon and I know the other victim is not, and I get a pulse reading, there's no doubt that I'm digging my daughter out first no matter how deep she's buried and how shallow the other victim might be. It's just the way it is. In that case, the pulse tech might lead to two fatalities instead of one, and I know how to avoid it, but there's no way I'd be able to.

While I think the pulse sensing technology is interesting, I think it needs more development and needs to be standard on more (or all) beacons before it becomes a valuable tool.

[B6Fischer]

Why are you assuming she can't pick a beacon herself? As it happens, my wife knows way more than me about avy safety and can buy whatever she wants. But I love my Pulse, so I'm personally am interested in how the new Mammuts perform, hence my question. As is typical of us, she's comfortable with her current gear while I'm trying to convince her the new and shiny will be better.

Not trying to jump down your throat -- just sometimes the general feeling on TGR that we men need to buy gear for the non-tech-savvy womenfolk grates on me.

Relax Francis. He's on here asking for tech info not marriage counseling...

[Bruce Springskiin]

I am not convinced the pulse will work if worn in a pants pocket. You are more likely to have detectable movement with the beacon against your abdomen than a thigh.

[PNWbrit]

....I can see how, even if everyone is wearing pulse equipped beacons, it might influence the decision making process ......knowing who is who in a multiple burial situation. If my daughter (who is one of my regular skiing partners) is wearing a pulse sensing beacon and I know the other victim is not, and I get a pulse reading, there's no doubt that I'm digging my daughter out first no matter how deep she's buried and how shallow the other victim might be.

^ this

[GeezerSteve]

Yup

nothing to add to johngenx's lucid observations

[Meadow Skipper]

My daughter uses the Pieps DSP Sport - the newest one, and I really like it. But, she's going to be taking her Canadian Avalanche Association Avalanche Operations Level 1, and it's not the on the recommended beacon list. The list is made up of "pro level" beacons like the Pulse, S1+, etc.

I guess I think that it's bullshit to only recommend those feature-laden beacons. The DSP Sport, the Element, and the 3+ are all excellent beacons and deserving of serious consideration. Those 'features' don't appeal to me at all. I like things to be as simple as possible when the shit hits the fan.

Like some others here, the idea of trying to make Sophie's Choice while in an multiple victim avy scenario is very off-putting. IMO you make the choice on locations and depths, and not by keeping looking for a pulse reading. It just adds a very subjective factor to a very chaotic and stressful decision-making situation.

And for instance

If my daughter (who is one of my regular skiing partners) is wearing a pulse sensing beacon and I know the other victim is not, and I get a pulse reading, there's no doubt that I'm digging my daughter out first no matter how deep she's buried and how shallow the other victim might be.

What if there are two pulse-sensing beacons, or three? Or you don't get a signal from a pulse-sensing beacon?

[PNWbrit]

My daughter uses the Pieps DSP Sport - the newest one, and I really like it. But, she's going to be taking her Canadian Avalanche Association Avalanche Operations Level 1, and it's not the on the recommended beacon list. The list is made up of "pro level" beacons like the Pulse, S1+, etc. So, I'm keen on seeing the new Barryvox S.

Recommended personal equipment for Avalanche Operations Level 1
Version August 2017
Avalanche transceiver – The accepted standard for avalanche operations work is a modern 3-antenna digital
transceiver. Modern is considered to be a model that is currently offered, supported, and/or recommended for
professional use by the transceiver manufacturer.
“Single antenna (analog) transceivers are considered obsolete. Need convincing? Three antennae digital
transceivers generally won’t find single antenna transceivers as well as digital units. That means if two people are
buried close together, the one with the digital transceiver is likely to be isolated first. Signal overlap can also be a
significantly bigger issue with old transceivers in a multi-burial scenario.” Avalanche Canada, 2016

What's wrong with the DSP sport?

I've never seen this "recommended for professional use by the transceiver manufacturer." before.