What is the Toyota/Lexus Bike Equivalent?

**Dantheman** · 10-23-2017, 12:47 PM

That "Skills with Phil" guy did a bike park lap on a Huffy FS bike with rim brakes last year. The brakes (and, to be fair, the rest of the bike) didn't last one run.

**plugboots** · 10-23-2017, 12:48 PM

^^^ I agree with that, (what toast said). But there's a list of things that suck for disks too, mostly due to maintenance. Anyway, you get my point, that trying to get 20 years out of a FS mtn bike is pretty hard, and not because the shit don't last.

Obsolescence.

Also, does the OP ride the bike park hard?

**Mazderati** · 10-23-2017, 12:54 PM

I ride switch to the road.

**plugboots** · 10-23-2017, 12:55 PM

So.. are you getting your question answered?

**Mazderati** · 10-23-2017, 12:59 PM

It's a question without an answer in an industry of almost total parity. Pick a color from your favorite chinesium brand and ride.

**plugboots** · 10-23-2017, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Mazderati

It's a question without an answer in an industry of almost total parity. Pick a color from your favorite chinesium brand and ride.

Well there you go. As you originally asked, the bike will last, but you prolly won't be able to get parts for it when they wear out.

**Ted Striker** · 10-23-2017, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by plugboots

A full suspension design will be old news in a couple years.

While I generally agree with your posts, this statement is only true from a marketing standpoint. The physics behind mtb (really motorcycles) is fully understood and established.

For instance, the kona process is technically a single pivot, i.e. the same as most konas over the last 15 years, and most motorcycles since WWII.

**Ted Striker** · 10-23-2017, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Mazderati

It's a question without an answer in an industry of almost total parity. Pick a color from your favorite chinesium brand and ride.

Originally Posted by plugboots

Well there you go. As you originally asked, the bike will last, but you prolly won't be able to get parts for it when they wear out.

These two posts sum it up nicely.

**plugboots** · 10-23-2017, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by pisteoff

While I generally agree with your posts, this statement is only true from a marketing standpoint. The physics behind mtb (really motorcycles) is fully understood and established.

For instance, the kona process is technically a single pivot, i.e. the same as most konas over the last 15 years, and most motorcycles since WWII.

We're on the same page. The design will be just different enough, (maybe not in this instance), in just a few years, that often you won't be able to get the seals or some other part to maintain it. Maybe that's why he should get a Kona, or Trek or Specialized. Hey this is a huge part of why I have a SS belt drive HT as one of my bikes.

**Ted Striker** · 10-23-2017, 01:54 PM

Yep. It's how they get ya. 1 1/8 headset, as mentioned up thread, is a good example.

**Swine** · 10-23-2017, 02:08 PM

If we're focusing on frame alone and customer service, as someone mentioned, Knolly is top notch. I have 2006 V-tach bike, never worn a pivot out, hasn't even squeaked (and I did not ride that thing lightly). Also have a 2012 (13?) Chilcotin, same thing, pivots and linkage have taken a ton of hard miles, stiff and tight as brand new. Frames come down to materials/design, welding, and hardware, Knolly can't be beat (at least my experience with their non-plastic offerings). During that time I also had a Turner 5.spot, it's a good bike, but pivots wore and needed maintenance. Turner makes it easy, but I still didn't love it when the Knollys, framewise, have been absolutely zero maintenance or failure.

**skaredshtles** · 10-23-2017, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by toast2266

I mean, sure. A dialed set of quality rim brakes in ideal conditions stops ok. I still have old rim brakes on a bike or two.
But they suck if it's wet out. And they suck if the pads get glazed. And they suck if your rim goes out of true. And they suck if your rim gets dented. And they suck if some dirt gets in the cables. etc...

I'll go even further and say, given where we are currently, they just suck.

**TahoeJ** · 10-23-2017, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dantheman

No shit. I'd give up rear suspension before I gave up disc brakes. Shit, modern high performance FS bikes would be downright dangerous without modern high performance disc brakes.

Agree completely. I took out my old 2000 Rock Hopper hard tail the other day just for kicks (and perspective) and the first thing that stood out to me was how much better disc brakes are. With my new expectations of stopping power the rim brakes were scary. Possibly the single most underrated improvement over the last 10-20 years or so.

Got my 8 year old daughter a new bike the other day. A couple of laps around a trail and the bike park and I ask her what she thinks. First response: "the brakes are so much better!" - she didn't notice that her old bike had rim brakes and the new one had discs, she was just riding and it was that obvious to her.

**Ted Striker** · 10-23-2017, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

...disc brakes are... Possibly the single most underrated improvement over the last 10-20 years or so.

This is unquestionably true, although in the context of what plugboots said, there is a price and maintenance trade off for the increased stopping power.

My ride home drunk from the bar bike has 26" wheels and rim brakes, but I wouldn't ride the trails on it.

Right tool for the right job.

**Dantheman** · 10-23-2017, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

Agree completely. I took out my old 2000 Rock Hopper hard tail the other day just for kicks (and perspective) and the first thing that stood out to me was how much better disc brakes are. With my new expectations of stopping power the rim brakes were scary. Possibly the single most underrated improvement over the last 10-20 years or so.

Without a doubt, if I had to choose I'd take a hardtail with discs and a dropper over a FS with rim brakes and no dropper.

Originally Posted by TahoeJ

Got my 8 year old daughter a new bike the other day. A couple of laps around a trail and the bike park and I ask her what she thinks. First response: "the brakes are so much better!" - she didn't notice that her old bike had rim brakes and the new one had discs, she was just riding and it was that obvious to her.

What did you get her? A lot of people will argue that hydro discs are overkill for kids, but for real riding they're completely justified IME. Maintenance-wise, you'll probably never have to bleed them since she'll never boil the fluid, she'll never get them hot enough to warp a rotor, and a set of pads will last years.

**MarsB** · 10-23-2017, 07:45 PM

I am guessing she has cable pull discs, which are an even better solution there. No muss, no fuss -enough stopping power in 90% of applications. I keep BB7s on my hard tail and cross bike for just such reasons.

**XXX-er** · 10-23-2017, 08:32 PM

I had the BB7 for > 2 years and had zero issues, just dial the red knobs in to compensate for pad wear and they were mo powerful than the hayes hydro's of the time for sure, maybe the modulation was not as good but a great brake

**jackattack** · 10-23-2017, 09:58 PM

Here'a about as toyota as it gets... https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...-trek-stache-7

**plugboots** · 10-23-2017, 10:34 PM

Sure, but not FS.

**jm2e** · 10-24-2017, 08:49 AM

Originally Posted by plugboots

Well there you go. As you originally asked, the bike will last, but you prolly won't be able to get parts for it when they wear out.

I feel like this is the real fallacy of the current debate.
True, if you bought a bike 20 years ago you won't be able to put some of the modern parts on it, like disc brakes and a Pike fork. But you also couldn't take a car from 20 years ago and put modern safety and luxury upgrades into it. But it'll still drive and shops can still work on it. But a car from 1997 will at best feel like a car from 1997 while a car from 2017 will feel like it has the benefit of the last 20 years of refinement ......... and new.
Take a bike from 20 years ago. There are still brakes, levers, pads easily accessible for it. You can still find equivalent of the original drivetrain, but you cold probably also upgrade it to something way nicer within reason. You might not be able to find an i9 wheelset with 35mm ID rims for it, but you'll be able to service and tune the original wheels until the cows come home. And thanks to the rest of the bike world, there will still be plenty of replacements rims if you need one. Cockpit stuff? Zero issues.
Seriously guys, this isn't a question of whether the bike will feel modern 20 years from now, it's a question of whether it can still be used as a bike.

And yes, rim brakes are horrible.

**kidwoo** · 10-24-2017, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Mazderati

My application probably aligns more with how cyclocross bikes are used but rear suspension is a necessity.

So you're kind of asking what's the unimog you should buy in order to help you get your groceries around the supermarket isles.

Seriously, pretty much any of them.

**dunfree** · 10-24-2017, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by jm2e

Take a bike from 20 years ago. There are still brakes, levers, pads easily accessible for it. You can still find equivalent of the original drivetrain, but you cold probably also upgrade it to something way nicer within reason. You might not be able to find an i9 wheelset with 35mm ID rims for it, but you'll be able to service and tune the original wheels until the cows come home. And thanks to the rest of the bike world, there will still be plenty of replacements rims if you need one. Cockpit stuff? Zero issues.
Seriously guys, this isn't a question of whether the bike will feel modern 20 years from now, it's a question of whether it can still be used as a bike.

this is true if you wrench it yourself and care to spend the time and effort to keep it running. which is entirely opposite the idea of a Lexus/Toyota, they are cars for people who don't really care about cars. They aren't going to pay a shop to do an engine swap, they want to replace the consumables and keep it running for 10 years.

**Mazderati** · 10-24-2017, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by dunfree

this is true if you wrench it yourself and care to spend the time and effort to keep it running. which is entirely opposite the idea of a Lexus/Toyota, they are cars for people who don't really care about cars. They aren't going to pay a shop to do an engine swap, they want to replace the consumables and keep it running for 10 years.

Toyota/Lexus was used as an example because they have a reputation for high quality, durability, reliability, and reasonable performance. It's not that I don't care about bikes, it's that I don't want the obligation of caring. If I take care of the bike, I want it to last.

**Mazderati** · 10-24-2017, 10:10 AM

You know, bike pricing has always been crazy but at least when bike companies were bike companies and not just lifestyle brands there was some semblance of locality and community and the cost was easier to swallow. Now, it just feels like I'm just being fleeced by a conglomerate that doesn't give a shit. /rant