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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    Toyota/Lexus was used as an example because they have a reputation for high quality, durability, reliability, and reasonable performance. It's not that I don't care about bikes, it's that I don't want the obligation of caring. If I take care of the bike, I want it to last.
    You phrased it much better than I.

  2. #102
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    Anyone have an AMP B4 for sale? Hahaha


  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    You know, bike pricing has always been crazy but at least when bike companies were bike companies and not just lifestyle brands there was some semblance of locality and community and the cost was easier to swallow. Now, it just feels like I'm just being fleeced by a conglomerate that doesn't give a shit. /rant
    Unfortunately, many of the small/local/rider-owned/ blah blah blah companies are the lifestyle brands now. And they get the most play on social media / sites like this.

    At least Giant, Specialized, Trek, etc, are just selling you a bike, not trail cred, or club membership.

    (I'm starting to sound like Hugh Conway, lol)

    As for the prices, I'd argue that the value equation is better today on the mid level stuff, which used to be crap (brakes and suspension are a lot better) but yeah, the top prices have gotten way out of hand.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisteoff View Post
    Unfortunately, many of the small/local/rider-owned/ blah blah blah companies are the lifestyle brands now. And they get the most play on social media / sites like this.

    At least Giant, Specialized, Trek, etc, are just selling you a bike, not trail cred, or club membership.
    Santa Cruz is no longer in that category as we know. http://www.pon.com/en/our-business/bedrijven

    I'm not even sure who is anymore. Hard to keep up.

  5. #105
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    Is anybody selling lifestyle - and pushing new standards - more than Trek? I have trouble giving the big companies any benefit of the doubt.

    Guerilla Gravity bikes are welded in Denver, but aren't priced like it. Cheap and customizable build options.

    You can get a Waltworks custom frame built for less than a lot of carbon frames (retail). Take into account the fact that he sells parts for shop cost with a frame, and it ends up costing sub-dentist dollars.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisteoff View Post
    Unfortunately, many of the small/local/rider-owned/ blah blah blah companies are the lifestyle brands now. And they get the most play on social media / sites like this.

    At least Giant, Specialized, Trek, etc, are just selling you a bike, not trail cred, or club membership.

    (I'm starting to sound like Hugh Conway, lol)

    As for the prices, I'd argue that the value equation is better today on the mid level stuff, which used to be crap (brakes and suspension are a lot better) but yeah, the top prices have gotten way out of hand.
    Isn't the whole point of that ^^ is to make the big score when you sell out to a large company?

    I met a guy who did that with I believe it was syncros and then he musta got bored cuz he got back in the game by starting Banshee

    unusual guy once posted on NSMB about building a while wheel stoned on acid
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  7. #107
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    I had no idea PON was that big and diverse.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagtagley View Post
    Is anybody selling lifestyle - and pushing new standards - more than Trek? I have trouble giving the big companies any benefit of the doubt.
    My point was that the guy with the torch+TIG and/or racing pedigree and/or engineering degree, building bikes out of a small shop, has been somewhat supplanted by the go to Taiwan come back with a bike company (complete with clothing line) model. Remember to like us on Yelp!

    You're as much buying a bike as joining a tribe. Whereas, nobody cares if you ride a Trek.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    this is true if you wrench it yourself and care to spend the time and effort to keep it running. which is entirely opposite the idea of a Lexus/Toyota, they are cars for people who don't really care about cars. They aren't going to pay a shop to do an engine swap, they want to replace the consumables and keep it running for 10 years.
    That's humorous. Rookie describing old masters.

    Dunfee, I was overhauling cars and taking them to the 1/4 mile when you were in your daddy's nutsack.

    After about a decade of gearhead wrenching and performance driving, I just wanted a car I don't have to mess with. Or a truck likewise. Which is why I've owned Toyotas & why, when I got the itch to get a quicker little thing made by VW, I ended up spending way too much time keeping it running... and then promptly got a Toyota after, which I've now driven for 19 years. Yee hah.

    I don't need my motor vehicle to "say something" about me and I know how to drive so I can have fun in any car, pokey & wobbly or scaryfast & taut.

    Thanks for being so wrong, Dunfee.

    Quote Originally Posted by pisteoff View Post
    (I'm starting to sound like Hugh Conway, lol)
    Say what you will about Yooge, one thing he always brought was a perspective to freshen up the echo chamber effect's stale air.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    Isn't the whole point of that ^^ is to make the big score when you sell out to a large company?

    I met a guy who did that with I believe it was syncros and then he musta got bored cuz he got back in the game by starting Banshee

    unusual guy once posted on NSMB about building a while wheel stoned on acid
    Pippin!
    Hasn't been involved with Banshee for a while but was definitely part of the OG scene BITD.
    Alpental Indigenous

  11. #111
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    yeah I met him at sunpeaks when he was starting banshee what 15 yars ago?

    and then he would post the odd thing on nsmb

    buddy seemed like a total character
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  12. #112
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    What is the Toyota/Lexus Bike Equivalent?

    Too funny, I used to kinda know P.O. too. He once told me that the more he raced, the less he enjoyed riding, and vice versa. I would later adopt that phrase for myself. IIRC, when those guys sold to GT, it wasn't to get rich, it was because they had run out of money.

    But I thought the Banshee guy was someone else from syncros? Not that it matters.

  13. #113
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    I met Pippin way back when. A character for sure. Upper personality

  14. #114
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    Met him in 1989 when Challenge Pub was putting on the industry Mt. bike Symposium up at Whistler.
    Good times, that event was a huge party with a ton of characters, Pippin fit right in.
    Funny, there was riding at Whistler back then but it was pretty raw comparatively speaking.
    Alpental Indigenous

  15. #115
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    I think that ^^could be said about mtn biking everywhere, that was even before the extreme thing all started, thinking back to 89 a neighbor took me to the North Shore (the birthplace of the extreme thing ) on mtn bikes with no suspension/narrow flat bars U-brakes and there were not many people on the few trails we rode but it was a little different than anything I had ever seen, I would explain it to people at the time as its like riding off the end of your coffee table over and over for several kilometers down a mtn side

    I never went back to the shore till early 2000's but I knew what was going on at the shore, I know we had been there at the start of something big, by that time there was 5-8 inches of full suspension, disc brakes, 50 lb bikes, trails had elevated stunts and crazy shit, my kid took me down pink starfish after a huge rain event and I couldn't ride >80 % of it

    so here we are now 15ish yrs later, from what I read it sounds like any of that shit that was crazy got decommissioned on the shore and mtn bikes are different for flowey dummied down single track probabaly nothing on the shore worth aimming a Banshee Scream down nowdays?

    so whom really wants to ride a mtn bike that is 20 yrs old, or any bike for that matter?

    perhaps a 20 yr old road bike, but road bikes have changed, I had an old vitus ( they were beautiful but Pippin laughed & told me those glued aluminium tubes all fell apart! ) which got me riding a road bike, then I picked up a CAAD8 (now 11 yrs old) which was great no more death wobbles at top speed and again there have been big changes with roadbikes

    maybe my touring bike then, its a > 15 yr old repurposed tig welded steel kona mtn bike HT but you know there are nicer faster touring bikes with bigger wheels?

    we do this for fun so do you need a bike to last 20 years OR do you need a bike mfger to make better bikes that you wana buy??
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by creaky fossil View Post
    After about a decade of gearhead wrenching and performance driving, I just wanted a car I don't have to mess with. Or a truck likewise. Which is why I've owned Toyotas & why, when I got the itch to get a quicker little thing made by VW, I ended up spending way too much time keeping it running... and then promptly got a Toyota after, which I've now driven for 19 years. Yee hah.
    i ain't dunfee, and you've just described what I was going for. Clearly I wasn't clear, I thought using the derogatory "car guy" phrasing would be. Mazderati wasn't clear with it either. Oh well. Maybe I should have taken the time to point out the absurd recommended maintenance schedule for a Unimog? If I'd mentioned the need Unimog drivers have for posing with their vehicle on some roadside thing to show the wonderful suspension articulation would it have helped? time rolls on.

  17. #117
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    It's road bikes, but this is pretty good. Road bikes are definitely not FS mtn bikes.
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    so whom really wants to ride a mtn bike that is 20 yrs old, or any bike for that matter?

    perhaps a 20 yr old road bike, but road bikes have changed, I had an old vitus ( they were beautiful but Pippin laughed & told me those glued aluminium tubes all fell apart! ) which got me riding a road bike, then I picked up a CAAD8 (now 11 yrs old) which was great no more death wobbles at top speed and again there have been big changes with roadbikes

    maybe my touring bike then, its a > 15 yr old repurposed tig welded steel kona mtn bike HT but you know there are nicer faster touring bikes with bigger wheels
    A 20 y.o. custom-built high quality alloy steel road frame will ride as well as the newest hottest $3000 frame, which, if carbon, may be 1-1/2 lbs. lighter (big fucking deal). The touring bikes we built 30 years ago had plenty of clearance for 42mm tires and fenders (although I cannot imagine touring on paved roads on anything fatter than 32). The most significant improvement that requires an up-to-date touring frame is disc brakes, which are indeed a huge improvement in bad weather. AFAICT, otherwise custom-built touring bike frame standards settled down about 20 years ago, e.g., 68mm threaded BB shells, 130mm or 135mm rear hub spacing, 1-1/8 threadless steerer (still most common with custom touring frame builders, albeit largely abandoned by mass producers). ETA: I see they call them "adventure bicycles" now.

    Mountain bikes are an entirely different thing. I have no idea if widely accepted frame standards will ever gel. The nature of the business seems to militate against it. I am a bit hopeful when I see a few big manufacturers going back to 73mm threaded BB shells.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIYSteve View Post
    A 20 y.o. custom-built high quality alloy steel road frame will ride as well as the newest hottest $3000 frame, which, if carbon, may be 1-1/2 lbs. lighter (big fucking deal). The touring bikes we built 30 years ago had plenty of clearance for 42mm tires and fenders (although I cannot imagine touring on paved roads on anything fatter than 32). The most significant improvement that requires an up-to-date touring frame is disc brakes, which are indeed a huge improvement in bad weather. AFAICT, otherwise custom-built touring bike frame standards settled down about 20 years ago, e.g., 68mm threaded BB shells, 130mm or 135mm rear hub spacing, 1-1/8 threadless steerer (still most common with custom touring frame builders, albeit largely abandoned by mass producers). ETA: I see they call them "adventure bicycles" now.

    Mountain bikes are an entirely different thing. I have no idea if widely accepted frame standards will ever gel. The nature of the business seems to militate against it. I am a bit hopeful when I see a few big manufacturers going back to 73mm threaded BB shells.
    well if a road bike is FASTER maybe cuz its lighter and or handles better then isnt that a big fucking deal ?

    yeah touring bikes are probably the least likely to change much for me more so cuz I am repurposing an old mtnbike HT if i had a real touring bike to begin with ... not much change

    But mtn bikes, ya there are big changes in bikes/bike geometry/ components/trails
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by plugboots View Post
    It's road bikes, but this is pretty good. Road bikes are definitely not FS mtn bikes.
    Definitely an interesting side-by-side. But, definitely not relevant to the OP unless you're really just looking at the "cheap" bike and pointing out that it's a totally fine option.

    What I can't stand about this and similar comparisons is that they leave out tons of valid objective variables. Comparing a brand new bike to a used bike. Not giving any idea how nice the "cheap" bike was when it was new. Not discussing actual purchase price of the nice bike. A valid test would be to compare the "nice" bike to a competent budget priced new bike. Or, relevant to this thread; compare a super nice bike from 10 years ago to a brand new budget bike.
    But hey, I don't have a web show.
    If you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it tubeless, I will. I got spare time.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    well if a road bike is FASTER maybe cuz its lighter and or handles better then isnt that a big fucking deal ?
    Modern road bikes don't handle any better than a high quality custom made road bike of 20 years ago. They are a bit lighter. Big fucking deal.

  22. #122
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    I only did tank slappers on an aluminium Vitus so not sure where that qualifys in terms of quality but the frame was kinda flexy

    It only had 6 gear not 9 or 10 so not the same spread and the shifters were on the down tube instead of in the brake levers and only one of them was indexed

    so my 20 yr old road bike was just like a modern road bike only different eh
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIYSteve View Post
    Modern road bikes don't handle any better than a high quality custom made road bike of 20 years ago.
    Of course they do.

    What a weird thing to suggest...

  24. #124
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    well Steve has made alot of bikes so if anyone knows a thing or 2 about it ... Steve would

    but in view of materials and modern components now vs 20 yrs ago

    I respectfully agree to disagree with him
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Definitely an interesting side-by-side. But, definitely not relevant to the OP unless you're really just looking at the "cheap" bike and pointing out that it's a totally fine option.

    What I can't stand about this and similar comparisons is that they leave out tons of valid objective variables. Comparing a brand new bike to a used bike. Not giving any idea how nice the "cheap" bike was when it was new. Not discussing actual purchase price of the nice bike. A valid test would be to compare the "nice" bike to a competent budget priced new bike. Or, relevant to this thread; compare a super nice bike from 10 years ago to a brand new budget bike.
    But hey, I don't have a web show.
    They kinda do this in the video. That Raleigh was pretty good 30? years ago, so that's why I put it in this thread. Plus I like thread drift when a point has been beaten to death. Also, they do other comparisons exactly like what you request, and I thought when folks see that video they could look at their other comparos.

    Anyway, there are lots of good suggestions in this thread. FS technology changes kinda frequently, so it's hard to pick a design that will last 20 years.

    I think the OP should get a steel or Ti hardtail 29er with XT, (if he wants it to last and be mostly repairable), for a long time, but he wants FS, so...get a Trek.
    Well maybe I'm the faggot America
    I'm not a part of a redneck agenda

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