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10-22-2017, 09:01 PM #26Registered User
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Giant cost less expensive becuz they are the best at making/marketing more bikes than anybody else in the world and they make more than just giant bikes, since the components are basicly the same being either sram or shimano are you saying Giant frames break easier ?
I think the OP's question is a silly one btwLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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10-22-2017, 09:02 PM #27
Are you including the numerous brands that are made by Giant but labeled Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, Diamondback, etc., etc., etc.? I dunno what the current numbers are, but I heard from a reliable source a few years ago that 50% of >$750 bicycles sold in the U.S. were made by Giant (and 80% were made by Giant, Merida, Tianjin or Farleigh).
I dunno much about full suspension MTBs, but I will say that IMO hardtail and road Giant frames are as well-built or (usually) better than everything else at any given price point. Giant factory is state of the art.
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10-22-2017, 09:16 PM #28Registered User
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this^^ to even atempt to mass produce bikes anywhere but Taiwan and probably at Giant would be silly
I met a bike designer/character back in the day who had started up his own brand and so I asked buddy where he was making them?
Taiwan I was told so WTF sez I ... why not canada?
eh
and bro said to me " all the best factories are in Taiwan, they got all the best welders, all the best people, all the components I need, so i rent a factory. If I want something I hop on a bike and ride up the street a few KM to a factory where they make the tubing I want or a place they can source the components I want and I get it the next day
and the beach is at the other end of the street "Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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10-22-2017, 09:28 PM #29
The truth is Asia has the West beat in manufacturing. Plain and simple.
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10-22-2017, 09:50 PM #30Registered User
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Do you know why that is ?
In WW2 America conquerd japan so as part of pacification they had an american named W Edwards Demming who showed them little yellow people how to make lots of shit really well, japan listened and propered
thing is when Demming came back to America "they laughed at him" thot they knew better and japan ate their breakfast
I think Tchermany did tooLee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know
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10-22-2017, 10:16 PM #31
Just thoughts:
If you're comparing to a car, you need to also acknowledge that a luxury car today that's still solidly running in 20 years will no longer be a luxury car. It will have evolved into a pet project, fun to have, takes extra care, only 1 or 2 mechanics you'd trust it with, and you love it like a member of your family.
Specialized has a lifetime warranty to original owner. People who have their bikes really like their bikes. If I had a Stumpy MB1 from the early 90s I'd be pretty psyched with it now. But I'd see it just like I'd see any Lexus or whatever "nice" car from over 20 years ago. Solid, rolls, not anywhere near luxury anymore. Too much BS for me personally, but I also have a broken Stumpy that I hold onto, knowing that if I'd been able to track down the original owner he'd be able to get a brand new current year Stumpy for it. Alas, I'm the third owner.
Giant; did not know about the lifetime warranty. Instant cred? Would certainly consider. People either like or not-really like their bikes. There is no love, no hate. They make good bikes that appeal to a lot of people. They seem to be a good company. Shops are everywhere.
Knolly: Boutique brand. Recently instituted lifetime warranty. Including carbon. Fantastic personalized customer service. Will work directly with you, or let you go through your LBS. Any LBS. They just sent me a new chainstay for my 2011 6" travel bike that's still totally relevant and rips trail and keeps me from feeling like I'd benefit much from getting a new bike. I'm the only person I know who's broken a Knolly. I'm sure it happens, but not enough to hear much about it happening. Would buy a carbon Warden or the new 29er (out in early spring) if current steed was stolen. Yes, I'm a fanboi.
Liteville: Rare like a unicorn in the States. Well regarded in Eurozone. I've never talked to anyone who has a 301 or 601 that didn't think it was the best bike they'd every ridden. Their 5+5 warranty will give you a new frame in the first 5 years (arguably the period "defects" are likely to surface, AND the period of relevance for most bikes), in years 6-10 they'll give you 50% off a new frame. My understanding is that they'll replace anything that could happen riding it hard. Maybe not drive into the carport or run over by a cement truck, but certainly hucking big drops and racing DH/Enduro. Light as carbon, similar price as carbon, can dent and keep riding like alloy. Pretty sure the warranty applies to all components other than shocks/forks. Warranty extends beyond original owner. Seriously, you could buy a broken frame on eBay and warranty it. If you could find one.
I don't know any other companies with truly solid warranties. Probably a couple more out there, I just don't know about them. That said, Toyota's don't have great warranties, they just have a great reputation. So yea, maybe go with the Santa Cruz? If nothing else, because of the carbon frame smashing video they put out a few years ago. And the new Danny Macaskill video where he tries to break their wheels. That shit certainly has a Toyota aura to it.However many are in a shit ton.
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10-22-2017, 10:38 PM #32
A lot. Kool Aid is delicious, especially black cherry.
Sure the rider is the most important variable. But that variable stays constant when I change bikes.
I've never bothered to demo skis. Could I tell the difference between competing models? I don't know or honestly care that much. I just buy the skis I'm interested in when I'm in the market. But there's a lot of threads here dedicated to just that.
I have demoed a lot of bikes for shits and giggles, though. Even so, I bought my last few bikes blind because I knew specifically what I was looking for. I definitely don't buy a bike for brand identity. I'm on a Yeti now, and the whole Tribe hive-mind thing creeps me out.
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10-22-2017, 10:56 PM #33Registered User
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10-22-2017, 10:59 PM #34
It has nothing to do with giant's ability to manufacture a nice bike; clearly they can do that. But I don't like the way their dual link design plays out. The links are relatively long and unsupported. I don't particularly care for how they ride either, but that's a different discussion. And I believe they're using press fit bb's on a lot of their frames, which certainly isn't what I'd want if I was buying a frame to last. I think they're also using some aluminum pivot and shock mount hardware. Which isn't a huge deal, but not what I'd want on a burly frame.
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10-22-2017, 11:27 PM #35
Turner Cliff's notes:
Dave was a sponsored racer in the early 90s, and wanted to design his own bikes / start his own company. Since he couldn't afford to tool up for that, he had Ventana build his frames. When popularity (of both brands) made it hard for Ventana to keep up with the demand, the Turner production was moved to a small fab shop in Tempe, and when demand exceeded their capacity, production was moved to Sportech.
In the early 2000s Dave started having his frames built by Sapa in Portland. When carbon became the material du jour, he had those frames built in Asia.
As for Zen, that's a guy from Ellsworth who started his own fab shop (i.e. he knows how to build a frame).
In my not so humble opinion, DT has always been a good rider, designer, and straight shooter. But for full disclosure, I'm a former racer, own several Turners, and will admit to being a fanboi (homer).
So if you have a line on a used Turner, by all means consider buying it. But if you're thinking of buying a brand new boutique bike, some introspection would serve you well.
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10-23-2017, 12:34 AM #36
This is the nitty-gritty detail that makes a difference.
Cool to hear some history but then it sounds like Turner is just a name now, too. I've been on and off looking at bikes for the last year and it's downright disappointing to see so many bike companies turned brands. Cannondales were made in PA, Barracuda was winning slalom races, and the GT LTS was relevant (and also US-made) last time I bought a bike. Klein, AMP, Gary Fisher, Schwinn (!!!); don't even exist. It's the Twilight Zone for someone who hasn't looked at bikes in so long.
RIP
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10-23-2017, 07:57 AM #37observing free range rude
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I had this conversation with my boss and learned a ~$1k used hardtail is my sweet spot.
The e36 M3 of the bike world 😎
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10-23-2017, 08:33 AM #38
That GT example is such a good reflection of the perception phenomena. Here in the states, I think they’re seen as the Performance Bike house brand. Like Novara is/was for REI. In the Eurozone they’re a totally relevant. Anyone paying attention to WC DH knows those bikes are certainly legit. Always a wonder to me that every shop in America selling GT Bikes didn’t have gigantic posters of the Athertons, listing their medals.
However many are in a shit ton.
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10-23-2017, 08:38 AM #39Banned
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I'd say Specialized / S-works is most like Toyota / Lexus. Very well designed but not exotic.
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10-23-2017, 08:45 AM #40
I was chatting with Dave a couple weeks ago, he mentioned a USA made aluminum modern geo Sultan is in the works.
OP, if you want something that will last forever, Ti. Aluminum fatigues and can't be easily welded back together. Personally I wouldn't want a full suspension Ti bike, but some people must like them.
Example that is on sale:
https://lynskeyperformance.com/2018-...acing-package/Last edited by 406; 10-23-2017 at 09:52 AM.
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10-23-2017, 08:49 AM #41
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10-23-2017, 09:30 AM #42Banned
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Ti breaks just like the rest of them. I broke a Ti frame from a very reputable builder and I know a few guys that have broken multiple Lynskeys each and we're all about 165 pounds.
The only frame material that I haven't broken is steel, but I much prefer the stiffness of Alu and plastic for the weight. My current hardtail is the new Specialized Epic expert hardtail carbon. At 875 grams including hardware it is the lightest frame, road or Mtn in existence.
With the updated geo it is an amazing capable bicycle that does everything that my 16' Honzo Alu that I had that I broke, but is way faster everywhere than my Honzo was. Ok well the Honzo did crush the downs but overall the Epic kills it.
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10-23-2017, 09:44 AM #43
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10-23-2017, 09:47 AM #44
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10-23-2017, 09:52 AM #45
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10-23-2017, 09:53 AM #46yelgatgab
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15-20 years ago, my daily driver was a Chameleon. 10-15 years ago it was a Heckler. It might be tough to find a replacement 1 1/8" fork now, but otherwise, there's nothing compatibility-wise that would keep me from still riding them. Geometry updates are nice, but aren't required upgrades. The big question is whether or not the frames would have held up. Probably, but no way to know for sure.
Bearings, seals and components are wear items that will need to be maintained, overhauled, or replaced regardless of the bike they're on, so you're really looking at the frame and whether or not it - and the standards it's built on - will last the long haul. We can only guess on standards, and it remains to be seen if today's carbon bikes will hold up for that long. Lifetime warranties certainly help assuage any doubts. I'd rather bank on a frame that lasts than a warranty, but that's just me.
Anyway, my longevity bike is metal (steel baby!), has standard size pivot bearings you can buy anywhere, 73mm threaded BB shell, 49mm headtube for HTA shenanigans, and 157 rear spacing. Practical build, with a focus on decent wheels and brakes that aren't disposable.Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.
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10-23-2017, 10:02 AM #47Banned
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Ti is actually very difficult to fix properly which is why Lynskey gave whole new frames to the friends that broke them, and Indy Fab gave me a whole new rear triangle vs just welding the chainstay dropout junction that broke.
There are are steel full suspension frames available from some builders. Vicious cycles is one.
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10-23-2017, 10:21 AM #48
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10-23-2017, 10:31 AM #49
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10-23-2017, 10:33 AM #50
I just assumed anyone making full suspension steel went out of business. :-)
But you could have found someone to likely repair it had the companies not replaced: https://www.ticycles.com/services/#services-main
I really don't think there is a mountain bike equivalent of a Toyota. So if you never want to buy a bike again, get something with a lifetime warranty.
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