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  1. #26
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    Giant cost less expensive becuz they are the best at making/marketing more bikes than anybody else in the world and they make more than just giant bikes, since the components are basicly the same being either sram or shimano are you saying Giant frames break easier ?

    I think the OP's question is a silly one btw
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    I'm just saying that the giants on the market aren't the best for long term durability.
    Are you including the numerous brands that are made by Giant but labeled Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, Diamondback, etc., etc., etc.? I dunno what the current numbers are, but I heard from a reliable source a few years ago that 50% of >$750 bicycles sold in the U.S. were made by Giant (and 80% were made by Giant, Merida, Tianjin or Farleigh).

    I dunno much about full suspension MTBs, but I will say that IMO hardtail and road Giant frames are as well-built or (usually) better than everything else at any given price point. Giant factory is state of the art.

  3. #28
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    this^^ to even atempt to mass produce bikes anywhere but Taiwan and probably at Giant would be silly

    I met a bike designer/character back in the day who had started up his own brand and so I asked buddy where he was making them?

    Taiwan I was told so WTF sez I ... why not canada?

    eh

    and bro said to me " all the best factories are in Taiwan, they got all the best welders, all the best people, all the components I need, so i rent a factory. If I want something I hop on a bike and ride up the street a few KM to a factory where they make the tubing I want or a place they can source the components I want and I get it the next day

    and the beach is at the other end of the street "
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  4. #29
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    The truth is Asia has the West beat in manufacturing. Plain and simple.

  5. #30
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    Do you know why that is ?

    In WW2 America conquerd japan so as part of pacification they had an american named W Edwards Demming who showed them little yellow people how to make lots of shit really well, japan listened and propered

    thing is when Demming came back to America "they laughed at him" thot they knew better and japan ate their breakfast

    I think Tchermany did too
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  6. #31
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    Just thoughts:
    If you're comparing to a car, you need to also acknowledge that a luxury car today that's still solidly running in 20 years will no longer be a luxury car. It will have evolved into a pet project, fun to have, takes extra care, only 1 or 2 mechanics you'd trust it with, and you love it like a member of your family.

    Specialized has a lifetime warranty to original owner. People who have their bikes really like their bikes. If I had a Stumpy MB1 from the early 90s I'd be pretty psyched with it now. But I'd see it just like I'd see any Lexus or whatever "nice" car from over 20 years ago. Solid, rolls, not anywhere near luxury anymore. Too much BS for me personally, but I also have a broken Stumpy that I hold onto, knowing that if I'd been able to track down the original owner he'd be able to get a brand new current year Stumpy for it. Alas, I'm the third owner.

    Giant; did not know about the lifetime warranty. Instant cred? Would certainly consider. People either like or not-really like their bikes. There is no love, no hate. They make good bikes that appeal to a lot of people. They seem to be a good company. Shops are everywhere.

    Knolly: Boutique brand. Recently instituted lifetime warranty. Including carbon. Fantastic personalized customer service. Will work directly with you, or let you go through your LBS. Any LBS. They just sent me a new chainstay for my 2011 6" travel bike that's still totally relevant and rips trail and keeps me from feeling like I'd benefit much from getting a new bike. I'm the only person I know who's broken a Knolly. I'm sure it happens, but not enough to hear much about it happening. Would buy a carbon Warden or the new 29er (out in early spring) if current steed was stolen. Yes, I'm a fanboi.

    Liteville: Rare like a unicorn in the States. Well regarded in Eurozone. I've never talked to anyone who has a 301 or 601 that didn't think it was the best bike they'd every ridden. Their 5+5 warranty will give you a new frame in the first 5 years (arguably the period "defects" are likely to surface, AND the period of relevance for most bikes), in years 6-10 they'll give you 50% off a new frame. My understanding is that they'll replace anything that could happen riding it hard. Maybe not drive into the carport or run over by a cement truck, but certainly hucking big drops and racing DH/Enduro. Light as carbon, similar price as carbon, can dent and keep riding like alloy. Pretty sure the warranty applies to all components other than shocks/forks. Warranty extends beyond original owner. Seriously, you could buy a broken frame on eBay and warranty it. If you could find one.

    I don't know any other companies with truly solid warranties. Probably a couple more out there, I just don't know about them. That said, Toyota's don't have great warranties, they just have a great reputation. So yea, maybe go with the Santa Cruz? If nothing else, because of the carbon frame smashing video they put out a few years ago. And the new Danny Macaskill video where he tries to break their wheels. That shit certainly has a Toyota aura to it.
    If you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it tubeless, I will. I got spare time.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmcrawfo View Post
    How much Kool-Aid have you drank in your lifetime?

    The difference between ski brands, among skis of a similar style, is largely indistinguishable. If you think the difference between brand X & Y's all mountain ski is actually measurable, you are drunk. Manufacturing processes and materials are largely standardized across the industry.


    Lets face it, we largely by bikes because of the marketing influences and brand identity.... when choosing between brands that we readily identify with, we are often swayed by colour. If brand identity and colour don't factor into your equation, you are likely shopping by price or %of discount.

    At no time in MTB history has there been a clear stand out for quality design or materials. a few mm here or a degree there makes more of difference in the marketing hype. This is not to say that over all, as a whole, the industry has progressed its designs, material and manufacturing. but this has been a global movement, and influenced by manufacturing capabilities largely made possible by other industries.

    I challenge you to disprove this theory. The most significant variable is the rider, not the equipment. If the equipment was so significant and so noticeably different, there would be clear trends in wins and podiums... if LetterKenny has taught us anything, it's all about the W's.
    A lot. Kool Aid is delicious, especially black cherry.

    Sure the rider is the most important variable. But that variable stays constant when I change bikes.

    I've never bothered to demo skis. Could I tell the difference between competing models? I don't know or honestly care that much. I just buy the skis I'm interested in when I'm in the market. But there's a lot of threads here dedicated to just that.

    I have demoed a lot of bikes for shits and giggles, though. Even so, I bought my last few bikes blind because I knew specifically what I was looking for. I definitely don't buy a bike for brand identity. I'm on a Yeti now, and the whole Tribe hive-mind thing creeps me out.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    I'd give that nod to Diamondback right now. Their new Release frame is very well reviewed and the build kit on the Release 3 is completely nuts for the price. Pike RC3, X1, etc. level parts front to back for $2500. I think a Trance or Reign with a similar build is at least $4000.
    Agree, the DB release 3 is a whole lot of bike for the price. Been riding mine for several months and love it

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIYSteve View Post
    Are you including the numerous brands that are made by Giant but labeled Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, Diamondback, etc., etc., etc.? I dunno what the current numbers are, but I heard from a reliable source a few years ago that 50% of >$750 bicycles sold in the U.S. were made by Giant (and 80% were made by Giant, Merida, Tianjin or Farleigh).
    .
    It has nothing to do with giant's ability to manufacture a nice bike; clearly they can do that. But I don't like the way their dual link design plays out. The links are relatively long and unsupported. I don't particularly care for how they ride either, but that's a different discussion. And I believe they're using press fit bb's on a lot of their frames, which certainly isn't what I'd want if I was buying a frame to last. I think they're also using some aluminum pivot and shock mount hardware. Which isn't a huge deal, but not what I'd want on a burly frame.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    Turner is a familiar name but a) the website shows carbon bikes only which seems weird for a company that was kind of known for polished aluminum frames and b) who the hell owns and makes the bikes? Wiki says SAPA assumed manufacturing for Turner in 2003. SAPA stopped producing bicycles in 2011 but another company, Zen, took over the SAPA manufacturing facility the same year. Zen closed shop in 2016. I mean, are Turner bikes being produced in the same facility as every other bike at this point? Looking through the FAQ section of Turner's website suggests a big change for the company sometime around 2016.
    Turner Cliff's notes:

    Dave was a sponsored racer in the early 90s, and wanted to design his own bikes / start his own company. Since he couldn't afford to tool up for that, he had Ventana build his frames. When popularity (of both brands) made it hard for Ventana to keep up with the demand, the Turner production was moved to a small fab shop in Tempe, and when demand exceeded their capacity, production was moved to Sportech.

    In the early 2000s Dave started having his frames built by Sapa in Portland. When carbon became the material du jour, he had those frames built in Asia.

    As for Zen, that's a guy from Ellsworth who started his own fab shop (i.e. he knows how to build a frame).

    In my not so humble opinion, DT has always been a good rider, designer, and straight shooter. But for full disclosure, I'm a former racer, own several Turners, and will admit to being a fanboi (homer).

    So if you have a line on a used Turner, by all means consider buying it. But if you're thinking of buying a brand new boutique bike, some introspection would serve you well.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    And I believe they're using press fit bb's on a lot of their frames, which certainly isn't what I'd want if I was buying a frame to last. I think they're also using some aluminum pivot and shock mount hardware. Which isn't a huge deal, but not what I'd want on a burly frame.
    This is the nitty-gritty detail that makes a difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by pisteoff View Post
    Turner Cliff's notes:

    Dave was a sponsored racer in the early 90s, and wanted to design his own bikes / start his own company. Since he couldn't afford to tool up for that, he had Ventana build his frames. When popularity (of both brands) made it hard for Ventana to keep up with the demand, the Turner production was moved to a small fab shop in Tempe, and when demand exceeded their capacity, production was moved to Sportech.

    In the early 2000s Dave started having his frames built by Sapa in Portland. When carbon became the material du jour, he had those frames built in Asia.

    As for Zen, that's a guy from Ellsworth who started his own fab shop (i.e. he knows how to build a frame).

    In my not so humble opinion, DT has always been a good rider, designer, and straight shooter. But for full disclosure, I'm a former racer, own several Turners, and will admit to being a fanboi (homer).

    So if you have a line on a used Turner, by all means consider buying it. But if you're thinking of buying a brand new boutique bike, some introspection would serve you well.
    Cool to hear some history but then it sounds like Turner is just a name now, too. I've been on and off looking at bikes for the last year and it's downright disappointing to see so many bike companies turned brands. Cannondales were made in PA, Barracuda was winning slalom races, and the GT LTS was relevant (and also US-made) last time I bought a bike. Klein, AMP, Gary Fisher, Schwinn (!!!); don't even exist. It's the Twilight Zone for someone who hasn't looked at bikes in so long.


    RIP


  12. #37
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    I had this conversation with my boss and learned a ~$1k used hardtail is my sweet spot.

    The e36 M3 of the bike world 😎

    Sent from my LGLS755 using TGR Forums mobile app
    Success has many fathers, while failure remains an orphan // Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not the fish they are after - HDT

  13. #38
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    That GT example is such a good reflection of the perception phenomena. Here in the states, I think they’re seen as the Performance Bike house brand. Like Novara is/was for REI. In the Eurozone they’re a totally relevant. Anyone paying attention to WC DH knows those bikes are certainly legit. Always a wonder to me that every shop in America selling GT Bikes didn’t have gigantic posters of the Athertons, listing their medals.
    If you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it tubeless, I will. I got spare time.

  14. #39
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    I'd say Specialized / S-works is most like Toyota / Lexus. Very well designed but not exotic.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisteoff View Post
    Turner Cliff's notes:

    Dave was a sponsored racer in the early 90s, and wanted to design his own bikes / start his own company. Since he couldn't afford to tool up for that, he had Ventana build his frames. When popularity (of both brands) made it hard for Ventana to keep up with the demand, the Turner production was moved to a small fab shop in Tempe, and when demand exceeded their capacity, production was moved to Sportech.

    In the early 2000s Dave started having his frames built by Sapa in Portland. When carbon became the material du jour, he had those frames built in Asia.

    As for Zen, that's a guy from Ellsworth who started his own fab shop (i.e. he knows how to build a frame).

    In my not so humble opinion, DT has always been a good rider, designer, and straight shooter. But for full disclosure, I'm a former racer, own several Turners, and will admit to being a fanboi (homer).

    So if you have a line on a used Turner, by all means consider buying it. But if you're thinking of buying a brand new boutique bike, some introspection would serve you well.
    I was chatting with Dave a couple weeks ago, he mentioned a USA made aluminum modern geo Sultan is in the works.

    OP, if you want something that will last forever, Ti. Aluminum fatigues and can't be easily welded back together. Personally I wouldn't want a full suspension Ti bike, but some people must like them.

    Example that is on sale:
    https://lynskeyperformance.com/2018-...acing-package/
    Last edited by 406; 10-23-2017 at 10:52 AM.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    This is the nitty-gritty detail that makes a difference.




    Cool to hear some history but then it sounds like Turner is just a name now, too. I've been on and off looking at bikes for the last year and it's downright disappointing to see so many bike companies turned brands. Cannondales were made in PA, Barracuda was winning slalom races, and the GT LTS was relevant (and also US-made) last time I bought a bike. Klein, AMP, Gary Fisher, Schwinn (!!!); don't even exist. It's the Twilight Zone for someone who hasn't looked at bikes in so long.


    RIP

    Maybe if you bought a bike more than once every 20 years, some of those companies would still be in business. Lol.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 406 View Post

    OP, if you want something that will last forever, Ti. Aluminum fatigues and can't be easily wielded back together. Personally I wouldn't want a full suspension Ti bike, but some people must like them.

    Example that is on sale:
    https://lynskeyperformance.com/2018-...acing-package/
    Ti breaks just like the rest of them. I broke a Ti frame from a very reputable builder and I know a few guys that have broken multiple Lynskeys each and we're all about 165 pounds.

    The only frame material that I haven't broken is steel, but I much prefer the stiffness of Alu and plastic for the weight. My current hardtail is the new Specialized Epic expert hardtail carbon. At 875 grams including hardware it is the lightest frame, road or Mtn in existence.

    With the updated geo it is an amazing capable bicycle that does everything that my 16' Honzo Alu that I had that I broke, but is way faster everywhere than my Honzo was. Ok well the Honzo did crush the downs but overall the Epic kills it.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    That GT example is such a good reflection of the perception phenomena. Here in the states, I think they’re seen as the Performance Bike house brand. Like Novara is/was for REI. In the Eurozone they’re a totally relevant.
    I believe Scott is the same way. Huge in Yurp.

    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    Always a wonder to me that every shop in America selling GT Bikes didn’t have gigantic posters of the Athertons, listing their medals.
    99.9% of customers wouldn't have the faintest clue who they are

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by jm2e View Post
    That GT example is such a good reflection of the perception phenomena. Here in the states, I think they’re seen as the Performance Bike house brand. Like Novara is/was for REI. In the Eurozone they’re a totally relevant. Anyone paying attention to WC DH knows those bikes are certainly legit. Always a wonder to me that every shop in America selling GT Bikes didn’t have gigantic posters of the Athertons, listing their medals.
    This is the bike I referenced which was a nod to mid '90s rear suspension exploration. The only thing I know about the current GT brand is, like Cannondale, ownership is a conglomerate that also makes housewares.




    Quote Originally Posted by joetron View Post
    Maybe if you bought a bike more than once every 20 years, some of those companies would still be in business. Lol.
    This is true.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMan View Post
    Ti breaks just like the rest of them. I broke a Ti frame from a very reputable builder and I know a few guys that have broken multiple Lynskeys each and we're all about 165 pounds.

    The only frame material that I haven't broken is steel, but I much prefer the stiffness of Alu and plastic for the weight. My current hardtail is the new Specialized Epic expert hardtail carbon. At 875 grams including hardware it is the lightest frame, road or Mtn in existence.

    With the updated geo it is an amazing capable bicycle that does everything that my 16' Honzo Alu that I had that I broke, but is way faster everywhere than my Honzo was. Ok well the Honzo did crush the downs but overall the Epic kills it.
    Sure, but my point was that Ti can be fixed because it is easier to weld...aluminum goes in the recycle bin and plastic goes in the trash when you crack it. OP said he wanted full suspension, so ruled out steel.

  21. #46
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    15-20 years ago, my daily driver was a Chameleon. 10-15 years ago it was a Heckler. It might be tough to find a replacement 1 1/8" fork now, but otherwise, there's nothing compatibility-wise that would keep me from still riding them. Geometry updates are nice, but aren't required upgrades. The big question is whether or not the frames would have held up. Probably, but no way to know for sure.

    Bearings, seals and components are wear items that will need to be maintained, overhauled, or replaced regardless of the bike they're on, so you're really looking at the frame and whether or not it - and the standards it's built on - will last the long haul. We can only guess on standards, and it remains to be seen if today's carbon bikes will hold up for that long. Lifetime warranties certainly help assuage any doubts. I'd rather bank on a frame that lasts than a warranty, but that's just me.

    Anyway, my longevity bike is metal (steel baby!), has standard size pivot bearings you can buy anywhere, 73mm threaded BB shell, 49mm headtube for HTA shenanigans, and 157 rear spacing. Practical build, with a focus on decent wheels and brakes that aren't disposable.
    Remind me. We'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 406 View Post
    Sure, but my point was that Ti can be fixed because it is easier to weld...aluminum goes in the recycle bin and plastic goes in the trash when you crack it. OP said he wanted full suspension, so ruled out steel.
    Ti is actually very difficult to fix properly which is why Lynskey gave whole new frames to the friends that broke them, and Indy Fab gave me a whole new rear triangle vs just welding the chainstay dropout junction that broke.

    There are are steel full suspension frames available from some builders. Vicious cycles is one.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Yeah, for sure. I'm not suggesting giant can't make a nice bike. I'm just saying that the giants on the market aren't the best for long term durability. Which is fine; they're less expensive because of it.
    Just curious - what are you basing this on? Because it doesn't jive with my (anecdotal) 25 years of experience with Giant bikes...

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by 406 View Post
    <snip> plastic goes in the trash when you crack it.
    This, actually, does not need to be true. There are numerous crabon repair facilities that I know of just on the Front Range. I'm sure there are others around the country as well...

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMan View Post
    Ti is actually very difficult to fix properly which is why Lynskey gave whole new frames to the friends that broke them, and Indy Fab gave me a whole new rear triangle vs just welding the chainstay dropout junction that broke.

    There are are steel full suspension frames available from some builders. Vicious cycles is one.
    I just assumed anyone making full suspension steel went out of business. :-)

    But you could have found someone to likely repair it had the companies not replaced: https://www.ticycles.com/services/#services-main

    I really don't think there is a mountain bike equivalent of a Toyota. So if you never want to buy a bike again, get something with a lifetime warranty.

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