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  1. #151
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    What a nightmare scenario. I don't blame him. I'd need my memory erased after experiencing that.

    I'll probably get in trouble for this, but many people are reading this thread and one or two of them just might be eager for backcountry adventure yet inexperienced in avalanche terrain. If that is you, then remember this: when setting your skin track, always try to take the longer indirect lower angle route via a crest of higher ground if possible. Remember this incident next time you are out there and it might save you. No disrespect intended to the poor deceased, their family or friends. What happened happened. This loss is too great not to immediately try to save a future life with it.
    Life is not lift served.

  2. #152
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    This is brutal on so many levels.My heart aches for the family and friends.

    Sent from my VS995 using TGR Forums mobile app
    License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by seano732 View Post
    From Doug Chabot, GNFAC.....

    https://www.outsideonline.com/224869...n-kennedy-dies

    Beacons off and in packs..... Fuck.
    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    I'll probably get in trouble for this, but many people are reading this thread and one or two of them just might be eager for backcountry adventure yet inexperienced in avalanche terrain. If that is you, then remember this: when setting your skin track, always try to take the longer indirect lower angle route via a crest of higher ground if possible. Remember this incident next time you are out there and it might save you. No disrespect intended to the poor deceased, their family or friends. What happened happened. This loss is too great not to immediately try to save a future life with it.
    Probably too soon, but this incident with hopefully a thoughtful discussion to follow at an appropriate time will be paramount for
    helping to keep people of ALL skill levels, experience, and education safer and alive in the future. From pre trip weather/Avy bulletins, to terrain assessment/route finding, and use of Avy tools/equipment. This is a text book example of what can go wrong in Avy terrain no matter who you are or how experienced you are.

  4. #154
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    my soul has taken flight
    from the bonds of the Earth
    dancing in the blue skies
    inside the laughter of angels



    off belay Hayden and Inge

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMan View Post
    Probably too soon, but this incident with hopefully a thoughtful discussion to follow at an appropriate time
    I agree. It went against me. But the problem is that too few people read those future discussions. And they tend not to leave an imprint in the memory either. Analysis too soon risks opening an undue flood gate of victim blaming and quarterbacking. However, so often I speak with people who say something like "what did they do that I shouldn't? It never gets discussed. I never learn anything." I explain that official avalanche center reports can't go into those details, and that most internet forums etc are trying to be respectful and not victim blame. A few weeks later they never see the discussion of what might have gone wrong - usually a terrain error. And what might have caused it to go wrong - usually a human factor.

    I broke my rule this time because it is a very significant event that will leave a memory in our minds. And, it is early season, when learning is valuable and not lost on the rush of winter powdesire. Neither of those necessarily make me right, and out of respect I am not trying to be right.
    Last edited by neck beard; 10-12-2017 at 06:56 PM.
    Life is not lift served.

  6. #156
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    Hayden may have been able to find Inge in time if they had their beacons on, or maybe not. It was just a fuck up. Many a rock climber has gotten to the top of a pitch and realized they forgot to finish tying their knot. Most get away with it. Lynn Hill--the best of the best--did not get away with it. She fell 72 feet to the ground and was lucky to live. Even world-class athletes can make simple, sometimes fatal mistakes. Sucks but it happens.

    If anything positive can come from this, it's along the lines of neck beard's comment, i.e. people being extra, extra careful and vigilant and thoughtful and cautious this winter, about route finding, about what you ski, about everything. Maybe lives will be saved with this tragedy fresh in people's minds.

    And if there is any sort of afterlife, I hope Hayden and Inge are together in spirit.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    I agree. It went against me. But the problem is that too few people read those future discussions. And they tend not to leave an imprint in the memory either. Analysis too soon risks opening an undue flood gate of victim blaming and quarterbacking. However, so often I speak with people who say something like "what did they do that I shouldn't? It never gets discussed. I never learn anything." I explain that official avalanche center reports can't go into those details, and that most internet forums etc are trying to be respectful and not victim blame. A few weeks later they never see the discussion of what might have gone wrong - usually a terrain error. And what might have caused it to go wrong - usually a human factor.

    I broke my rule this time because it is a very significant event that will leave a memory in our minds. And, it is early season, when learning is valuable and not lost on the rush of winter powdesire. Neither of those necessarily make me right, and our of respect I am not trying to be right.
    I couldn't agree more. This incident and especially due to the timing of it should (IMHO) be the topic of discussion for EVERY avy class of ALL levels, ALL talks, and be mentioned by EVERY Avalanche center in the country, Canada, and beyond. Starting ASAP. So many lives could be saved before the snow flies.

  8. #158
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    Avalanche fatality in The Taylor Hilgard range. Montana. Few details yet

    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Hayden may have been able to find Inge in time if they had their beacons on, or maybe not. It was just a fuck up. Many a rock climber has gotten to the top of a pitch and realized they forgot to finish tying their knot. Most get away with it. Lynn Hill--the best of the best--did not get away with it. She fell 72 feet to the ground and was lucky to live. Even world-class athletes can make simple, sometimes fatal mistakes. Sucks but it happens.

    If anything positive can come from this, it's along the lines of neck beard's comment, i.e. people being extra, extra careful and vigilant and thoughtful and cautious this winter, about route finding, about what you ski, about everything. Maybe lives will be saved with this tragedy fresh in people's minds.

    And if there is any sort of afterlife, I hope Hayden and Inge are together in spirit.
    We need to talk about it, and practice vigilance through that.

    Still just going over and over and over this in my head.

    One of the most exhausting thoughts for me right now are what risks have I taken and not even been aware of at the time, or mistakes I've made in the backcountry...and if people would be writing in a thread or on Facebook, "what the fuck was he thinking", in hindsight.

    I am cautious in the backcountry. I talk about everything, try to keep everyones heads on a swivel and observe observe observe. I keep going over in my head a bunch of BC lines and days I skied last year, seemed fun at the time and now in hindsight I'm like going over the conditions and the weather and the ROUTES etc etc, wellll what if this what if that. What if there was some looming fucked up variable I didn't even consider?

    Hyper awareness and objectivity are what we need achieve. Get the complacent egos in all of us out of the picture entirely.

    I hope this doesn't offend anyone or come as too soon. I just need a place to vent. This is taking an emotional toll.

    Saying a lot of Prayers this week.

    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by neck beard View Post
    [snip]... However, so often I speak with people who say something like "what did they do that I shouldn't? It never gets discussed. I never learn anything." I explain that official avalanche center reports can't go into those details, and that most internet forums etc are trying to be respectful and not victim blame. A few weeks later they never see the discussion of what might have gone wrong - usually a terrain error. And what might have caused it to go wrong - usually a human factor.
    [snip]....
    The CAIC in particular gave pretty detailed analyses a few years ago, but for multiple reasons went to much shorter. Honestly, there aren't too many new knowns in this area, and most accidents including this one don't really yield new insights. Kind of like reading ANAM, after two years or so it all pretty much reads the same. I think the discussion here has been very respectful and constructive though, it's just that the behavioral aspects of risk mitigation don't really get built as strong instincts or reactions by accident analysis, imo. Self-care behavioral prep, in the face of loss, for those who do risky activities with loved ones may be a separate valuable discussion, but how to have that as a practiced routine is not an easily answered question imo.

  10. #160
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    Incidentally, this episode of the Totally Deep Podcast popped up on my feed on my way to/from work yesterday. HK is a guest on the show, and I was surprised to hear him say that he felt like backcountry skiing was the most dangerous sport/activity he does. And that's coming from a guy that did this route on the Ogre. Worth a listen.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by TownPump View Post
    The CAIC in particular gave pretty detailed analyses a few years ago, but for multiple reasons went to much shorter. Honestly, there aren't too many new knowns in this area, and most accidents including this one don't really yield new insights. Kind of like reading ANAM, after two years or so it all pretty much reads the same. I think the discussion here has been very respectful and constructive though, it's just that the behavioral aspects of risk mitigation don't really get built as strong instincts or reactions by accident analysis, imo. Self-care behavioral prep, in the face of loss, for those who do risky activities with loved ones may be a separate valuable discussion, but how to have that as a practiced routine is not an easily answered question imo.
    Better than I could have put it!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  12. #162
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    Very sad news indeed. Just goes to show that even very experienced people can make mistakes and there is never a good time to forget the fundamentals. RIP

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandbox View Post
    Very sad news indeed. Just goes to show that even very experienced people can make mistakes and there is never a good time to forget the fundamentals. RIP
    Yup, The human factor has no boundaries. We are all capable of making BIG mistakes. The internet warriors that vocally hand out heavy judgement are the ones that really scare me though, if they are so confident that they couldn't possibly make those sort of mistakes it makes me think they are dangerous and too cocky. It's that sort of thinking that can really get your ass into a pickle of a situation.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  14. #164
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    Neckbeard thanks for the post D.

    Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    Yup, The human factor has no boundaries. We are all capable of making BIG mistakes. The internet warriors that vocally hand out heavy judgement are the ones that really scare me though, if they are so confident that they couldn't possibly make those sort of mistakes it makes me think they are dangerous and too cocky. It's that sort of thinking that can really get your ass into a pickle of a situation.
    I think that many people that hand out judgement of avalanche victims are desperately trying to convince themselves that they are not capable of making the same mistakes. As you said, these people scare me. I will not tour with them.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    I think that many people that hand out judgement of avalanche victims are desperately trying to convince themselves that they are not capable of making the same mistakes. As you said, these people scare me. I will not tour with them.
    Anytime I hear the word "dumb" in relation to mistakes in the bc (this recent tragedy especially) my cockles get raised -- I really hate that word in such discussions. It's made for some spirited discussion with partners.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrenalated View Post
    I think that many people that hand out judgement of avalanche victims are desperately trying to convince themselves that they are not capable of making the same mistakes. As you said, these people scare me. I will not tour with them.
    Exactly, not the partners I want to have, that's for sure.

    Every day in the back country is a new experiment where a lack of adaptivity just doesn't have it's place and people that are stubborn and inpatient become liabilities.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Anytime I hear the word "dumb" in relation to mistakes in the bc (this recent tragedy especially) my cockles get raised -- I really hate that word in such discussions. It's made for some spirited discussion with partners.
    I freaking hate it when people use the word "dumb" for incidents like this. Humans, and by that I mean all of us, do dumb shit from time to time. A little humility goes a long way and it says a lot about a person imho.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    I freaking hate it when people use the word "dumb" for incidents like this. Humans, and by that I mean all of us, do dumb shit from time to time. A little humility goes a long way and it says a lot about a person imho.
    truth

  20. #170
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    There have been quite a few comments about arm-chair quarterbacking, and whether or not it's a good thing. I feel like analysis can be done in a sensitive manner that doesn't involve blaming the victims, and, while it's sad, a very significant portion of the body of human knowledge is derived from our collective catalogue of mistakes made by others.

    * This accident occurred because critical parts of their safety system were badly compromised.
    * Winter backcountry travel is a multi-layered system and all the layers are equally important.

    1. Planning Layer. Prevent most accidents from ever happening by planning correctly.
    2. Traveling Layer. Follow travel techniques. Leave a wide margin of safety.
    3. Rescue Layer. Know how to use tools that might turn around a worst case scenario.

    I feel like it is a common misconception that a person can neglect one layer and rely on the others in case something goes wrong. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Compromising one safety layer simply compromises the other safety layers in ways that are incredibly difficult to predict. Uncertainty is already the central theme in avalanche problems, and we shouldn't make the uncertainty worse by leaving to chance the things we can control.

    * Winter backcountry travel is a multi-layered system and all the layers are equally important.

  21. #171
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    Thinking of taking my snows off. - alabamaskier

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by TownPump View Post
    The CAIC in particular gave pretty detailed analyses a few years ago, but for multiple reasons went to much shorter. Honestly, there aren't too many new knowns in this area, and most accidents including this one don't really yield new insights. Kind of like reading ANAM, after two years or so it all pretty much reads the same. I think the discussion here has been very respectful and constructive though, it's just that the behavioral aspects of risk mitigation don't really get built as strong instincts or reactions by accident analysis, imo. Self-care behavioral prep, in the face of loss, for those who do risky activities with loved ones may be a separate valuable discussion, but how to have that as a practiced routine is not an easily answered question imo.
    They could be really honest and say how she died.

    Was it trauma or did she suffocate while she was not beeping?
    Own your fail. ~Jer~

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by MTT View Post
    They could be really honest and say how she died.

    Was it trauma or did she suffocate while she was not beeping?
    The avalanche center doesn't -I'm assuming- make that type of determination. That's the coroner's job.
    "fuck off you asshat gaper shit for brains fucktard wanker." - Jesus Christ
    "She was tossing her bean salad with the vigor of a Drunken Pop princess so I walked out of the corner and said.... "need a hand?"" - Odin

  24. #174
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    High odds, although not certain, that it was suffocation with the small size of the slide and open slope nature.

    Just awful. A couple mistakes and boom. Beacons on at the trailhead, even if it seems stupid b/c of the lack of snow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by plugboots View Post
    I read that the beacons were off and inside their pack. I know, (Monday morning QB), but "on at the car off at the bar" is so ingrained in my mind that I don't remember when I learned it.
    Beginning of october is pretty early but storm snow can happen any time of year

    even if you are not buried a foot of wet sluff can take you over a cliff

    who can say exactly what happened ... we weren't there




    batteries are cheap, I turn my beacon on when I put my pants on & turn it off when I take them off
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

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