Page 8 of 8 FirstFirst ... 3 4 5 6 7 8
Results 176 to 191 of 191
  1. #176
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    759
    keep the keyboard vomiting to a minimum

    i don't know what to make of it

    life is

    i am sad

  2. #177
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    7,584
    Is this a vibes only thread? I'd like to be able to consider on what might have been the "why?" so I would have a caution flag go up if I was placed in a similar situation. I lost a friend this year and "I wasn't there" was the only thing I was told by the most experienced guide I know. I saw some uneasiness in his eyes that I understood.
    thnx Capt. Chuck Shunstrom

    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  3. #178
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Lamebird
    Posts
    412
    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    Is this a vibes only thread? I'd like to be able to consider on what might have been the "why?" so I would have a caution flag go up if I was placed in a similar situation. I lost a friend this year and "I wasn't there" was the only thing I was told by the most experienced guide I know. I saw some uneasiness in his eyes that I understood.
    I don't think there really is a good "why." We can search and ponder for answers, but I think the only answers might be they forgot to do a beacon check, which is nothing more than a mistake. And then they traveled in to a chute prone to slide due to the bad cohesion with an early season snow storm.

    I think all we can learn from this is that tragedies happen. Perhaps maybe someone can say always gain terrain through the safest possible approach, maybe they were doing that maybe they weren't I'm not intimately familiar with the area.

    Shit happens, and it's sad that this happened, I seriously have no major thoughts than wishing for the best for the family.

  4. #179
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    Is this a vibes only thread? I'd like to be able to consider on what might have been the "why?" so I would have a caution flag go up if I was placed in a similar situation. I lost a friend this year and "I wasn't there" was the only thing I was told by the most experienced guide I know. I saw some uneasiness in his eyes that I understood.
    The whys here are pretty simple. If you have read the full report and still don't see the flags present, then going through some refresher study could help more than focusing on one specific event. The time of year may be distinctive, because they clearly got a lot of snow in September, but beyond that hard windslab on a decomposing weak layer is something you will see regularly.

  5. #180
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    7,584
    I read the report and none of the red flags had anything to do with why or how the beacon situation might have occurred. Yes, we will never know but I would think discussing possible scenario's would enlighten.

    I started a thread here about my friend and I have some thoughts on the how or why. I should post my thoughts there.

    The ones most affected by the tragic loss of a young person are the mothers and to them I offer my deepest sympathy.
    thnx Capt. Chuck Shunstrom

    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  6. #181
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Beer:30
    Posts
    5,206
    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    I read the report and none of the red flags had anything to do with why or how the beacon situation might have occurred. Yes, we will never know but I would think discussing possible scenario's would enlighten.
    It would be pure speculation to try to determine why the beacon was turned off in her pack.
    Regardless of the decisions that led to that, performing a beacon check at the trailhead or when they transitioned from hiking to skinning would have prevented it from happening.

  7. #182
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    582
    Quote Originally Posted by wooley12 View Post
    I read the report and none of the red flags had anything to do with why or how the beacon situation might have occurred. Yes, we will never know but I would think discussing possible scenario's would enlighten.
    Two young loves head out for an early season tour to stretch the legs, make some turns, and enjoy each other's company.

    6 mile walk in to the objective was filled with conversation, laughter, and reflection. Once entering the basin they look up at a beautiful line that is WELL within their ability and comfort level. A simple walk up. Based on where they got caught, they decided to steer clear of the apron directly under the gut and chose an area off to the side with rock/cliff above which would lessen the exposure. Snow down low may have been nicely tamped down styro snow so they climbed. As they ascended higher excitement grew for the turns that lay ahead. Excitement can cause complacency. A nice day can cause complacency. Early season shallow snowpack can cause complacency. Once on the move and the moving feels good it can tough to want to stop especially if the hackles are no where close to being raised. Sometimes climbing what you intend to ski can bite hard instantly when you least expect it and it's a whole lot harder to try to get out of harms way while ascending than descending. One step solid, the next step "oh shit".

    As far as beacons not being in service, maybe they just forgot.

  8. #183
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On Vacation for the Duration
    Posts
    7,584
    Your last sentence makes sense. Other activities with possible fatal consequences have a formal "Check list" procedure. I'm thinking of aviation. The idea of a check list is now being used by surgeons. I would imagine F1 drivers have something similar. IMO "Shit happens" or "I wasn't there" are not only not helpful but may be detrimental and worse then guessing at "how".
    thnx Capt. Chuck Shunstrom

    A few people feel the rain. Most people just get wet.

  9. #184
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    15,138
    Those looking to prevent an accident in their own backcountry journeys:

    • Simple checklists and rigid adherence to them would cover the basics like having proper gear in the proper place in the proper operating condition.
    • Using best practices for safe travel, proper trip planning, good communications/tools, and group management are key to getting the group on the right line for the day the right way via the right route.
    • Acronyms covering heuristics can be used as checklists such as ALPTRUTh for snowpack/weather/terrain red flags and FACCETS for human factor red flags.
    • Getting proper training and practicing skills such as rescue are important.


    That covers most accidents types that we see again and again.

    --------

    MY TAKE:

    The mountains aren't dangerous until you put a human in them.

    It's important to analyze accidents. It is so very human to ask "how did this happen? How can we prevent this?" The problem is that the best intending, skilled, and experienced human groups just don't follow best/good practices consistently and reliably enough to make the accident rate zero. It can be frustratingly sad to see well known mistakes repeatedly killing folks year after year. I used to get really frustrated about that. Now I am just saddened. The question stopped being "what did they do wrong and why?" The answers were almost always familiar. The question for me these days is "how do you get people to stop making these known mistakes?"

    It is rare we see an accident that elucidates a hitherto unrecognized causative factor in avalanche accidents/morbidity/mortality. This tragedy certainly highlights one educators and other professionals have briefly mentioned but not placed much focus on: mental health of group members surviving.

    There is not a ton of literature about acute stress morbidity/mortality in avalanches as with this tragedy. This was not PTSD. PTSD is a delayed/chronic condition. There is some sparse avalanche specific articles on PTSD. Here are a few:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4989177/
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...490100113/epdf
    https://issuu.com/theavalanchejourna...nal_volume_110

    This is an area I hope to make a difference in.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  10. #185
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    cb, co
    Posts
    3,196
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    [

    This is an area I hope to make a difference in.
    A friend of mine started SOAR, for survivors of avalanche and other outdoor accidents. I don't think she's done a lot with it recently, but here's the website if you or anyone else is interested. http://soar4life.org/

  11. #186
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    west tetons
    Posts
    1,153
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Those looking to prevent an accident in their own backcountry journeys:

    • Simple checklists and rigid adherence to them would cover the basics like having proper gear in the proper place in the proper operating condition.
    • Using best practices for safe travel, proper trip planning, good communications/tools, and group management are key to getting the group on the right line for the day the right way via the right route.
    • Acronyms covering heuristics can be used as checklists such as ALPTRUTh for snowpack/weather/terrain red flags and FACCETS for human factor red flags.
    • Getting proper training and practicing skills such as rescue are important.


    That covers most accidents types that we see again and again.

    --------

    MY TAKE:

    The mountains aren't dangerous until you put a human in them.

    It's important to analyze accidents. It is so very human to ask "how did this happen? How can we prevent this?" The problem is that the best intending, skilled, and experienced human groups just don't follow best/good practices consistently and reliably enough to make the accident rate zero. It can be frustratingly sad to see well known mistakes repeatedly killing folks year after year. I used to get really frustrated about that. Now I am just saddened. The question stopped being "what did they do wrong and why?" The answers were almost always familiar. The question for me these days is "how do you get people to stop making these known mistakes?"

    It is rare we see an accident that elucidates a hitherto unrecognized causative factor in avalanche accidents/morbidity/mortality. This tragedy certainly highlights one educators and other professionals have briefly mentioned but not placed much focus on: mental health of group members surviving.

    There is not a ton of literature about acute stress morbidity/mortality in avalanches as with this tragedy. This was not PTSD. PTSD is a delayed/chronic condition. There is some sparse avalanche specific articles on PTSD. Here are a few:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4989177/
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...490100113/epdf
    https://issuu.com/theavalanchejourna...nal_volume_110

    This is an area I hope to make a difference in.
    Hey Summit- the next TAR has a theme around that topic. I'll reach out to you offline- would love to have your perspective.

  12. #187
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    cottonwood heights
    Posts
    949
    Quote Originally Posted by seano732 View Post
    Kennedy and Dempster (also gone, RIP), on what won them the Piolet d' Or.......

    ski paintingshttp://michael-cuozzo.fineartamerica.com" horror has a face; you must make a friend of horror...horror and moral terror.. are your friends...if not, they are enemies to be feared...the horror"....col Kurtz

  13. #188
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    1,390
    One big take-away for me personally is to think about the stakes. Yeah we all know at some theoretical level that someone could die anytime we go into the hills, but I'm talking about really paying attention, being cognizant, aware, "woke" to when you and your partners lives are on the line.

    I mean pay attention in two ways:

    1)Physics. When are you in or underneath avalanche terrain? Or underneath big rock fall potential. Or skiing above cliffs? Etc. Its not just easy, but I'd even say necessary if your pursuits are high alpine rock climbing or big avalanche terrain, to ignore the obvious danger. You can't climb a mountain for 6,8, 12 hours and be in a state of total fear, so the more that you do this stuff, the more you block out the danger from your thoughts. But realizing the nuances in danger is exactly what you need to be doing in order to best keep safe traveling in/near avalanche terrain. Pay attention to the minute changes in aspect, elevation, snow, steepness, exposure, slope shape, etc.

    2) The Stakes. What/who is on the line and the possible consequences. For HK, the consequences seem to have only really hit home once they happened. I have no judgement of him or anyone else in such circumstance but unless we are willing to at least theoretically accept the possibility losing our partner, wife, friend, child then maybe we should rethink going into such places with them. He just couldn't live with it. Could I? It makes me think of the limited times I've taken my wife or kids into the backcountry. Would I be willing to tell the kids that their mom was gone from a jaunt into the back bowls, could I bear to live to tell my wife that her baby died because I took him skiing in pursuit of powder or adventure or would I be hardpressed to not take a similar path to HK? Or alternatively am I OK with putting my son or daughter in the position of not being able to rescue me and having to bear the weight of it? Hard questions to ponder, but ones that should at least be thought through. For some it means they'd quit or never B/C ski and for others it means they'll shrug and keep on charging. Not for anyone to tell others what to do, but I think one of the lessons we can take from this tragedy is to honestly realize what is at stake and when we are exposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Keystone is fucking lame. But, deadly.

  14. #189
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    4,876
    I've been training a lot in aviation (paragliding) recently and it has really made me think about now loose we run it in the back country skiing world. In my opinion, we as a community need to be a lot more critical of each other. If you have the "intent to travel in avalanche terrain" you need 100% focus and that starts when you take the skis out of the truck. You can't ever not beacon check at the trailhead. Period. Our bad decision making is the enemy. The more protocols we can establish that eliminate the need for decision making, the better off we will be.

  15. #190
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Simi Valley, CA
    Posts
    4,174
    Such a tragic incident, RIP to both and deepest condolences to friends and families.

  16. #191
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Helltown, MT
    Posts
    1,457
    In Memoriam video tribute to Hayden Kennedy and Inge Perkins

    http://rockandice.com/videos/climbin...nedy-memoriam/

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •