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  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    I mean, if I could I take a helicopter ride to take photos I would. Maybe it’s bad for the image, but that put less carbon into the air than a day of heli skiing or a flight across country.
    You guys are brutal... This isn't a one-for-one proposition. It's not like she had a day of heli skiing planned, but decided to use the helicopter for wedding photos instead.

    I would love to take a helicopter ride and absolutely would given the opportunity. But if I made my living off of espousing environmental causes and how important it is to limit our carbon footprint, then you better believe I wouldn't be flying somewhere (whether in a helicopter or plane - near of far) to take my wedding photos. The city park / pond / lake down the street would certainly suffice.

    It's the total lack of self awareness and accountability in these instances - and always being able to make excuses for your own actions when called out on your bullshit - that makes me frustrated.
    go upside down.

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonMexico View Post
    She took a fucking helicopter to do some wedding photos! Can we just agree how fucking stupid that was without getting into some deeper conversation around misogyny.

    Here's the thing...if you want to espouse environmentalism and carbon reduction and stopping global warming ad nauseum, then you CANT TAKE A FUCKING HELICOPTER TO DO SOME WEDDING PHOTOS!
    Why is that not OK but heliskiing is OK?
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonMexico View Post
    But if I made my living off of espousing environmental causes and how important it is to limit our carbon footprint, then you better believe I wouldn't be flying somewhere (whether in a helicopter or plane - near of far) to take my wedding photos.
    She’s a professional skier, not a pro climate activist.

  4. #354
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    She’s a professional skier, and a climate activist. She seems to be giving both her best. Nobody’s perfect.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonMexico View Post
    I would love to take a helicopter ride and absolutely would given the opportunity. But if I made my living off of espousing environmental causes and how important it is to limit our carbon footprint, then you better believe I wouldn't be flying somewhere (whether in a helicopter or plane - near of far) to take my wedding photos. The city park / pond / lake down the street would certainly suffice.
    Huh? Sounds like more thoughtless hypocrisy. An environmentalist who expects to have the right to speak up about carbon pollution should live on a path, not a street. If they live on a street they forfeit their right to speak out no?

    That street to the probably fake pond took an enormous amount of CO2 to produce and destroyed plants and the soil beneath them that sequester carbon and the non porous surface results in runoff into the lake which results in methane production.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0326081426.htm

    Purity is tough when we all live glass houses instead of mud huts.










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  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Self Jupiter View Post
    She’s a professional skier, and a climate activist. She seems to be giving both her best. Nobody’s perfect.
    And no one is asking her to be but ffs she could have a little self awareness.

    She climbed Everest so take a hike in your wedding dress for the pictures.

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle View Post
    And no one is asking her to be but ffs she could have a little self awareness.

    She climbed Everest so take a hike in your wedding dress for the pictures.
    Didn't JJ do 3 films involving self propulsion in response to criticism? Suddenly dude is legit and has license to speak out? Nope the guys throwing stones just lowered the bar some more and kept at.



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  8. #358
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    I think the heli for wedding photos is a bad look. No question about that from me.

    I also understand that this is a collective action problem and by far the most effective thing one can do on a individual level to fix it is to work on the politics. For example, POW AF spent a fair amount of money against some of the biggest climate deniers in Congress last cycle. Townsend was knocking on doors for Jessica Morse in our district.

    In the long run, that kind of stuff is more effective than becoming an ascetic hermit and using rocks for tools.

    There's a lot of stuff posted on this forum on this topic that reminds me of this...

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    And this (the original)...

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    Maybe low key, but still definitely an element of it. Not saying POW is above critique, but some of the critiques have logical holes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonMexico View Post
    I'm guessing you're not allowed to park a helicopter there...

    Attachment 294528
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFugitive View Post
    A proper environazi would nicely pack their fancy duds, schlep to the top, change into fancy duds, pose, change back, schlep down then post it on IG.

    Hoppen a helo for that same wedding pic? Thats straight hippycritical. Somebody needs to email CGz granola spancer
    Quote Originally Posted by RonMexico View Post
    She took a fucking helicopter to do some wedding photos! Can we just agree how fucking stupid that was without getting into some deeper conversation around misogyny.

    Here's the thing...if you want to espouse environmentalism and carbon reduction and stopping global warming ad nauseum, then you CANT TAKE A FUCKING HELICOPTER TO DO SOME WEDDING PHOTOS!
    Quote Originally Posted by RonMexico View Post
    You guys are brutal... This isn't a one-for-one proposition. It's not like she had a day of heli skiing planned, but decided to use the helicopter for wedding photos instead.

    I would love to take a helicopter ride and absolutely would given the opportunity. But if I made my living off of espousing environmental causes and how important it is to limit our carbon footprint, then you better believe I wouldn't be flying somewhere (whether in a helicopter or plane - near of far) to take my wedding photos. The city park / pond / lake down the street would certainly suffice.

    It's the total lack of self awareness and accountability in these instances - and always being able to make excuses for your own actions when called out on your bullshit - that makes me frustrated.
    Quote Originally Posted by concretejungle View Post
    And no one is asking her to be but ffs she could have a little self awareness.

    She climbed Everest so take a hike in your wedding dress for the pictures.
    EGGZACKLY! Self Awareness Hello!

    I sure won't be buying any granola from a company that spancers CG!

    I wanted to rethink buying Patagucci because they spancer her too...
    Their shit is so dope though, especially the FitzroyTrout Trucker Cap, that I couldn't not give them my freedom dollars.

    What were we arguing about again?
    Oh yeah.
    We are all sexists, except those of us that aren't.
    So don't criticize someone who makes a living off of public image.
    And doing more cool shit than you do.
    If they sit down to pee.
    It could never be about the substance of what they are bringing or how they bring it.

    It could only be because they have tits and a cute smile that we are critical...

    Back to the real issue...
    Why does Brody have to LEAD Caroline down the trail to their awaiting chariot of privilege?
    Have the fumes for the spent Jet-A made her too woozy to traverse the knife edge ridge in white satin high heels?

    Of does he have some suppressed misogynist sexism that won't allow him to let her use her level 3 skills to get back to the choppah!?!?

    Fuck that guy! I'm gonna unfollow him on instagram! That'll show him!

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    Bunny Don't Surf

  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermoon View Post
    I’m not downplaying individual changes in lifestyle, but if the power grid and all new cars turned renewable, then the rest of it wouldn’t really matter.
    There may not be climate-change impact from some renewable sources of energy but there is most definitely environmental impact. Daming rivers, solar arrays take up tons of land, etc. etc. There's no free lunch. Really, this attitude is a gift to polluters because it's so transparently facile and false. Own your hyperconsumption and it's impacts, don't bullshit them away.

  11. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by SDW View Post
    Yeah, but all that means is that the US collectively drives a lot more than it flies. It doesn't mean that for an individual's choices, flying has a smaller footprint than driving.
    No, it means there are bigger fish to fry. Airplane travel certainly doesn't help, but if we grounded all planes tomorrow it would make fuck all of a difference.

  12. #362
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    Individual actions give legitimacy to systemic movements.


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  13. #363
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    Why all the Caroline Gleich hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by dunfree View Post
    There may not be climate-change impact from some renewable sources of energy but there is most definitely environmental impact. Daming rivers, solar arrays take up tons of land, etc. etc. There's no free lunch. Really, this attitude is a gift to polluters because it's so transparently facile and false. Own your hyperconsumption and it's impacts, don't bullshit them away.
    That was just a climate oriented reply, in response to a critique of the carbon output of a helicopter. I’m happy to discuss your idea about what to do for either our carbon output, environmental impacts, or your own personal lifestyle that makes you so perfect ecologically that you think you are in a place to critique others.

    I’ve done plenty to reduce my footprint over the last few years, but I do it so I feel better about myself, not because I think my small changes will affect the global climate to any level. My time and money is best spent pressuring decision makers and supporting people, groups and yes, companies, that are working towards similar goals.

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby View Post
    Individual actions give legitimacy to systemic movements.


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    I don't disagree. That's why, say, Greta Thunberg's sailing to the United States was a good idea. Her flight over wouldn't have mattered, in the grand scheme of things, but she's setting a good example.

    I generally think the critique is overblown though. And especially when people use it as a convenient excuse to completely dismiss people out of hand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  15. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightRanger View Post
    I generally think the critique is overblown though. And especially when people use it as a convenient excuse to completely dismiss people out of hand.
    True enough, but isn't the point of advocating to convince people who aren't already convinced? It is known that many such people are looking for convenient excuses, so offering them up is at best ineffectual and at worst actually provides the whataboutist with ammunition that helps them ignore more effective advocates. (If legislators won't listen to scientists, send in the outdoorsy!?! Meh.)

    OP claimed to be looking for hate-splainers, and none of this rises to that level. Borrowing from Buster, those concerned with hypocrisy have to start with own own. But the critique of her actions as they impact her effectiveness is still true as far as it goes.

  16. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    True enough, but isn't the point of advocating to convince people who aren't already convinced? It is known that many such people are looking for convenient excuses, so offering them up is at best ineffectual and at worst actually provides the whataboutist with ammunition that helps them ignore more effective advocates. (If legislators won't listen to scientists, send in the outdoorsy!?! Meh.)

    OP claimed to be looking for hate-splainers, and none of this rises to that level. Borrowing from Buster, those concerned with hypocrisy have to start with own own. But the critique of her actions as they impact her effectiveness is still true as far as it goes.
    True enough. But where do we draw the line? There's a lot of subjective grey area there.

    Take Al Gore for example. Guy has been raising awareness about global warming for decades. Earth in the Balance was published in 1992. He's probably more responsible for raising climate change awareness than anybody. And he was doing it before most others except some scientists and a handful of enviro activists. To do that, he flew around the world a lot. I'm sure he's taken a lot of unnecessary flights for leisure too. He's a rich guy.

    Does that mean he's a hypocrite? I mean, I guess. But I would argue he's done more good than ill. And I think the argument to make on that point is fairly easy, given the available evidence.

    Like I said, the heli to the wedding photos is low-hanging fruit. But overall, I dunno, no matter what people do short of killing themselves to offset their carbon footprint, somebody is still going to criticize them for hypocrisy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  17. #367
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    I guess my point is that I agree with Buster in that judging a person for hypocrisy seems hypocritical, but it doesn't stop me from seeing the pragmatic effect it has on their message. Same goes for CG, JJ, Gore...

    As a member of the peanut gallery, more discussion of people who are trying to lead from the front seems helpful. Particularly those who are modeling and discovering better ways.

  18. #368
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    ^^^ Yes. I agree with all of that for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernest_Hemingway View Post
    I realize there is not much hope for a bullfighting forum. I understand that most of you would prefer to discuss the ingredients of jacket fabrics than the ingredients of a brave man. I know nothing of the former. But the latter is made of courage, and skill, and grace in the presence of the possibility of death. If someone could make a jacket of those three things it would no doubt be the most popular and prized item in all of your closets.

  19. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by uglymoney View Post
    Huh? Sounds like more thoughtless hypocrisy. An environmentalist who expects to have the right to speak up about carbon pollution should live on a path, not a street. If they live on a street they forfeit their right to speak out no?

    That street to the probably fake pond took an enormous amount of CO2 to produce and destroyed plants and the soil beneath them that sequester carbon and the non porous surface results in runoff into the lake which results in methane production.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0326081426.htm

    Purity is tough when we all live glass houses instead of mud huts.










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    Many wetland systems are carbon sinks, and urban ponds can help with nutrient removal if properly designed which can limit things like nitrogen and phosphorous in larger water bodies and consequently reduce algal blooms. So your categorization of ponds is vague and off base IMO.

    edit to add: If you are talking about large parking lots with a large pond lacking vegetation as a stormwater basin then yes, that can be a problem. Although phosphorous may bind to sediment and be retained limiting effluent concentrations. The bottom line is design is all site specific. That's why I don't agree with the sweeping categorizations of "urban ponds" being bad for the environment and contributing to "greening" as the article states.
    Last edited by 3PinGrin; 09-19-2019 at 04:50 PM.

  20. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    Many wetland systems are carbon sinks, and urban ponds can help with nutrient removal if properly designed which can limit things like nitrogen and phosphorous in larger water bodies and consequently reduce algal blooms. So your categorization of ponds is vague and off base IMO.

    edit to add: If you are talking about large parking lots with a large pond lacking vegetation as a stormwater basin then yes, that can be a problem. Although phosphorous may bind to sediment and be retained limiting effluent concentrations. The bottom line is design is all site specific. That's why I don't agree with the sweeping categorizations of "urban ponds" being bad for the environment and contributing to "greening" as the article states.
    I appreciate the reply. My wife works for a city making sure we have detention basins for stormwater runoff. It is harder to develop porous concrete because it cracks to pieces with freeze thaw cycles. They tried a small test section a couple years ago and it failed.

    My point was basically what lightranger said. Where do we draw the line? When people make an effort to do better ala JJ we still criticize him. For some people flying heli's is a job. Do they get to speak up? Do we refuse a heli evacuation if we get hurt in the backcountry?

    I personally decided years ago heli skiing isn't something I am interested in for a variety of reasons - although jumping over to another ridge at Silverton for 50 bucks would be fun since it flies anyway. Easy for me as a working stiff that has to count beans and can't afford heli skiing anyway but not so easy for people who pay bills flying around providing services. Do they have to remain silent?

  21. #371
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    Getting an emergency heli evacuation is a completely different thing than using a helicopter to go skiing or take wedding photos. This is whataboutism at its worst.
    Live Free or Die

  22. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdironRider View Post
    Getting an emergency heli evacuation is a completely different thing than using a helicopter to go skiing or take wedding photos. This is whataboutism at its worst.
    Thank you.

  23. #373
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    Okay. You guys are judge and jury for the purity department. Got it.

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  24. #374
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    From my point of view there is no point in trying to positively assert the 'right approach' to GW. Actions > words and, though it's absolutely not a purity competition, asynchronicity in your words & actions betrays misalignment therein. Vote for dems, fund orgs like SoC, SUWA, SLCA etc that are active in your area, share any insightful research you come across, discuss policies based on their merits (ex. Dan is great at this, ethics & actions aligned, no preaching yet he teaches us & contributes).

    Prioritizing personal gains from hyper-consumption in private is just not consistent with a true concern for the environment. Embarking on a highly publicized ad or lobbying campaign to offset that just adds to your footprint. And using derivatives to justify the lobbying campaign's carbon outlays just adds evermore energy consumption to the pile. It's all driven by ego - not concern. Ego maintenance is a real thing & these platforms like instaface & most forms of pic-heavy social media drive the related attention addiction. The larger your identity the larger the maintenance requirements, which is to say the more things you are the more energy you consume. Adopting a role as a hyper-consumer as a means of - at some point - being a net positive for the environment is a little like trying to fvck your way back to virginity.

    It's all a bit academic though. My perference is to respect the power of via negativa - addition by subtraction [short work commute, relatively small home, minimal lift utilization, aggressive reduction of media consumption, prioritizing learning over proselytizing, etc]. It's my personal approach, not the approach nor a superior approach but one that has a profile of benefits commensurate with what's important to me. When a contradiction is revealed I respect it & try to move forward in a thoughtful manner. As any of us ought to.

  25. #375
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    whats goin on
    ifin ya changed it from hate to cuck love
    mosta yoused still be winning why all the way beats me
    but whats evers
    im gonna respond to the thread
    by posting in it
    poundkeyburninggreenerthanubros
    "When the child was a child it waited patiently for the first snow and it still does"- Van "The Man" Morrison
    "I find I have already had my reward, in the doing of the thing" - Buzz Holmstrom
    "THIS IS WHAT WE DO"-AML -
    ski on in eternal peace

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