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  1. #151
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    this whole thread is tl;dr but the vast butthurtness in this sport is very lol

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    My buddy was in the level 3 course that Caroline attended. Said her shit was weak. That pretty much whenever she opened her mouth she didn't know what she was talking about.

    Skidog, you saw her after she traversed the ribbon on the Castle? The 3 hour roped traverse? Why even bring skis?

    I've always thought McLean's book should not exist. When he came to me in preparing it, I tried hard to stop him. My reasons were:
    1) At the time ski mountaineering was the last bastion of no guidebooks. (except Lou Dawson's). It seemed proper to leave some adventure for the up and comers. You know, you get to the top of something and you see 3 more objectives. You gotta figure out how to get there and what to bring, etc.
    2) You will entice unprepared people to go places that they ought not go to.
    3) THAT IT WOULD BE A CHECKLIST FOR PEOPLE (like Caroline).

    Obviously I did not succeed in convincing him not to publish.
    Interesting that he didn't know the range very well yet when he published; lots of classics aren't mentioned. Thank god.
    Wolverine Cirque is how many of the lines in the book? Like 9 or something? Wolvie is one place.
    The Ribbon? The Icicle? How ridiculous to encourage people to bring skis to those two places.
    I did see her come down the apron after the slog through the ribbon.

    I also know another very closely that has done the ribbon without ropes...it was apparently a very deep year, and at least at the time, there was a fixed rope around the obvious protruding rock is on the route. That dude's straight up crazy though. Been days he's been touring up superior and they were still bombing it. That's just a few gems from this guy.

    Caroline is a nice lady.

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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meadow Skipper View Post
    Haters gonna hate.
    Probably the least hateful person that you don't know.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    My buddy was in the level 3 course that Caroline attended. Said her shit was weak. That pretty much whenever she opened her mouth she didn't know what she was talking about.
    Its over exaggerations like this that make "that" narrative hard to believe, and point more towards some kind of bias. Whether that is a sexist bias, or a jealousy bias against a "famous" pro regardless of gender. The lady passed Avi 1, 2, multiple other certs, has spent a ton of time in the mountains solo, a ton of time in the mountains with guides, and "pretty much whenever she opened her mouth she didn't know what she was talking about"?

    Come-the-fuck-on. Sounds one helluva lot more like your buddy has an axe to grind, or an ego to stoke.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    Its over exaggerations like this that make "that" narrative hard to believe, and point more towards some kind of bias. Whether that is a sexist bias, or a jealousy bias against a "famous" pro regardless of gender. The lady passed Avi 1, 2, multiple other certs, has spent a ton of time in the mountains solo, a ton of time in the mountains with guides, and "pretty much whenever she opened her mouth she didn't know what she was talking about"?



    Come-the-fuck-on. Sounds one helluva lot more like your buddy has an axe to grind, or an ego to stoke.

    Or that he happened to agree with the instructors about her? Surely us arm chair quarterbacks know more about Caroline and her skill set than the folks that were with her that week?

  6. #156
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    um you do know everyone passes avvy 1 and 2 by showing up and paying
    dont cha?
    whilst more call it as ya see it than hateful
    you sure dont bring much stoke with that halo
    would your friends initials be tg
    i know he worked his ass off to pass
    and his shit is dialed
    and im pretty sure hes gonna
    gonna say
    you cant bullshit your way thru avvy 3
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    Or that he happened to agree with the instructors about her? Surely us arm chair quarterbacks know more about Caroline and her skill set than the folks that were with her that week?
    You don't see where the exaggeration is in the statement i took issue with? do you not find it problematic, why? or do you honestly not think it is an exaggeration?

    Since we are ALL hearing this story second hand, we ALL have to take the first hand accounts as pieces to the puzzle and then put them together based upon the background facts, and what we have seen of human nature. I think it would be stupid to ignore either sides recounting of the facts in the Avi 3 class. I personally am more inclined to blame the bias on "core-bros" living a poor dirtbag life jealous of an actual pro who knows how to market her talents into a successful career int he outdoors, than on a sexist bias.

    But, if i read the article correctly, Caroline didnt blame her not passing the class on the biased instructors, she simply used that anecdote of the obviously biased feedback as an another example of the bias she has faced and has to continually work to overcome.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiveLarger View Post

    I haven't seen anyone bitching about any males skiers using guides, which they are heavily relying on in every ski segment filmed in the entire history of skiing.

    I'm 100% confident Caroline has more mountain knowledge and skis harder than 99% of the people on this very board.
    I havent seen a single person in this thread bitch about her using guides. I havent seen a person in this thread say she doesnt have skills. I have been in the Wasatch BC and watched one of those gossipy wasatch guides break from his party to save someone from a burial. Dug out, triaged broken leg with powderturd in route before we could get across the meadow. The skill tg showed made me reassess what I could bring to the table when shit hits the fan. Guide cert is no joke, putting others lives in your hands is not something to be taken lightly, leading dumb dragon treats right into the dragons lair. I am surprised that CG, being all determined with a bucket full of skill and two buckets full of money, didnt double down go back and get her cert on the dl through another organization in another location. Then blog about it witjbreal data proving her point? Obvoiusly too many sexists im the Wasatch for someome on her level to get it done, too many fragile male egos. Maybe a more enlightend area like the tetons, bridgers or seirras would give her a fair shake? Or maybe, as independantly validated by telefree, there is some truth within the criticism. Not sure who posted it but someone said why didn't she take her concern through the proper channels instead of blogging about it without verbally indicting the wasatch guiding community (added my own inference). If you want equality you cant cherrypick what footing you want to be equal on.

    With all that said I think that being on the defensive all the time against threats, percieved or otherwise, must be a helluva horrible way to live. I guess it helps when you dont really need to do that thing to keep a roof over your head and food on the plate. Then you can do that thing to prove whatever point you see fit without fear of consequences. Escape from sexism via white priviledge. I like the ring of that.

    Man I was wasted as fuck typing in this thread last night. Haha. I think my points are in there if you can wade through spew. Only mildly embarrassed. That article, when read hungover this morn, still resonates whiny. Probably my suppressed sexism shining through.

    How the fuck has Silver Surfer not found this thread and made it his new SJW soapbox?
    Last edited by TheFugitive; 06-01-2018 at 10:49 AM.
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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    You don't see where the exaggeration is in the statement i took issue with? do you not find it problematic, why? or do you honestly not think it is an exaggeration?
    I did not try to exaggerate. My buddy is not a dirt bag wanna be. He said it was jaw dropping as to things Caroline ignorantly said and believed. Like, pretty much every time she opened her mouth.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by skifishbum View Post
    bottom line
    #nogo
    3 lemons

    You better get that avy 3 cert soon buddy or I will no longer hire you for guiding and fartography sessions. I may also blog about it and hastag your spancer #momofpupperstuffs. I know plenty of the bro athletes will still work with you sfb, but your lack of committment to safety protocals has me seriously concerned if you ever took any of those saftey meetings we had seriously.
    Last edited by TheFugitive; 06-01-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    But, if i read the article correctly, Caroline didnt blame her not passing the class on the biased instructors, she simply used that anecdote of the obviously biased feedback as an another example of the bias she has faced and has to continually work to overcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    I did not try to exaggerate. My buddy is not a dirt bag wanna be. He said it was jaw dropping as to things Caroline ignorantly said and believed. Like, pretty much every time she opened her mouth.
    Both of these statements could be true. I do tend to agree that she wouldn't have failed the course if she was dialed. And I also think the comments in her review were completely inappropriate / irrelevant and wreak of either sexism or resentment (or a combination of the two).

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheFugitive View Post
    3 lemons

    You better get that avy 3 cert soon buddy or I will no longer hire you for guiding and fartography sessions. I may also bog about it and hastag your spancer #momofpupperstufds. I know plenty of the bro athletes will still work with you sfb, but your lack of committmemt to safety protocals has me seriously concerned if you ever took any of those saftey meetings we had seriously.
    LOL

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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by telefreewasatch View Post
    I did not try to exaggerate. My buddy is not a dirt bag wanna be. He said it was jaw dropping as to things Caroline ignorantly said and believed. Like, pretty much every time she opened her mouth.
    FWIW i wasn't trying to call you out for exaggerating a story. I just find it very hard to believe someone with her background and skillset would be that level of incompetent.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    Both of these statements could be true. I do tend to agree that she wouldn't have failed the course if she was dialed. And I also think the comments in her review were completely inappropriate / irrelevant and wreak of either sexism or resentment (or a combination of the two).
    This is where I am at.

    Could a completely dialed, outspoken feminist and social media guru woman have passed? Absolutely.

    Were the comments she got inappropriate, implicitly sexist, and likely irrelevant to why she failed? Absolutely.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dantheman View Post
    She's pretty far to the upper right on the pretty face/badass athlete matrix, which for some guys is particularly emasculating and they just do not handle it well.
    True, I've seen that with some really dumb-bros over the years. (My wife experiences it biking, she is not super fast compared to her freinds (she ain't slow though), she's getting old, but some male bikers will NOT let her pass to this day.) But does Ingrid, Elyse, Angel, Jackie, etc. get called out the same way as much as Caronline? I'm gonna say not as much, no way. Why not? What's the difference?


    Seems silly to rush to defend her like others are doing here, when it's all speculation and clearly some of you are taking her story word-for-word for some reason. Man, it would be nice to just write this all off to sexism, tie it in a bow, and learn from it, right? Humans are so simple!

    She's a nice girl, that's all I say. She doesn't deserve all the bullshit she gets, but she needs to look inward and take responsibilities for some, not, all of her actions too.

    Or not, who fucking cares.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    FWIW i wasn't trying to call you out for exaggerating a story. I just find it very hard to believe someone with her background and skillset would be that level of incompetent.
    Thanks. I don't know if she is that level of incompetent, just sounds like shes not level 3 competent yet.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    FWIW i wasn't trying to call you out for exaggerating a story. I just find it very hard to believe someone with her background and skillset would be that level of incompetent.
    Ha, I could list a ton of experienced mountaineering people with first descents in Chamonix, etc that have a real casual outlook in the mountains. Most are not like this but the incompetent and loose cannons are everywhere.

    it's like all the rednecks with no biz experience saying Trump is a great biz guy because he's a billionaire. Not exactly. He's skilled, sure, but a complete clown. (not trying to make a connection between trump and CG though, and she may be very competent for all I know!)

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    Ha, I could list a ton of experienced mountaineering people with first descents in Chamonix, etc that have a real casual outlook in the mountains. Most are not like this but the incompetent and loose cannons are everywhere.

    it's like all the rednecks with no biz experience saying Trump is a great biz guy because he's a billionaire. Not exactly. He's skilled, sure, but a complete clown. (not trying to make a connection between trump and CG though, and she may be very competent for all I know!)
    For the sake of argument, how many of those loose cannons are very knowledgeable but just have a very high risk tolerance vs actually incompetent? Or are those closely connected in your mind?

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post

    Caroline is a nice lady.

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    Why does she have to be a " nice lady". Why do you feel you have to place her in a box defined by your sexist ideals. Do you think a "nice lady" can do the chuting gallery without guide assistance or perform human powered expidotions on 7 continents?

    That was all bullshit skidog.

    I am pretty sure the most woke, woman empowering, non pussy grabbing motherfucker could be called a sexist if someone is on the hunt and wants to be a dick about it. I dont rhink there is a way for a dude to wade in on a chicks skills in a critical way without a chance false foul flag being thrown. As an overgeneralization we've gone out of our in the past to look the other way at sexism, now new information has come to light and everyone as well as #me2 is on the hunt for it like wolves. /overgeneralization It'll swing the other way one day and hopefully lands somewhere in the middle.
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  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiveLarger View Post
    I'm 100% confident Caroline has more mountain knowledge and skis harder than 99% of the people on this very board.
    Blanket statements like this do her no favors.

    And to reiterate what others have said, it's very likely she wasn't prepared enough to pass her level 3, but the statements from the proctor are concerning. I assume that we are only privy to a small amount of a larger body of feedback, but the snippet we saw was a poor choice.

    Also, I'm still curious as to why guides would call her out for using guides. Seems counterintuitive.

  21. #171
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    Wow, this thread.

    Beyond the discussions surrounding sexism vs. being unprepared for avvy 3 course, I do wonder how valid the 'social media' angle is when evaluating a person's merits in the backcountry.

    The rise of social media in skiing/snowboarding over the past decade has been staggering, and having a presence on platforms like Instagram is not uncommon for amateur and pro shredders alike. In some ways it has been good at garnering exposure for achievements, advancing narratives on environmental protection, and connecting people across large oceans.

    But I've been constantly nagged about the 'pro' side of social media, and it's role as a moral hazard in the backcountry. It became very apparent during my college years in Bozeman, where I would often find myself traveling the backcountry ith people who were there primarily to 'get the shot' and 'post it up later'. In more than a couple instances there would be unconformable push by those people to ski in areas that others felt were not safe, as the desire for 'online exposure' was blinding them to the hazards present. Never caught in a slide because of it, but it was never a fun dynamic to have in a group.

    It got to the point where I had to start getting harsh about it, and ended up cutting out some bc partners because they were so focuses on filming and shooting. They were chasing their own vanity, and that made for a dangerous bias when decision-time came.

    So beyond any question of sexism or general avvy abilites- is it wrong for an instructor to take into account this aspect of social media, given that it may show tendencies and decision-making that go against safe backcountry travel practices? It shouldn't be the reason a person is failed, but is it to be completely ignored when the person has a large and well-known social media presence?

    just a thought.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    And I also think the comments in her review were completely inappropriate / irrelevant and wreak of either sexism or resentment (or a combination of the two).
    It's also *possible* these comments were made in attempt to help her succeed in the future. I don't think they reek of either bias or sexism without more context. And since we weren't there, we just don't know.

    Let's put aside the fact that it was Gleich and consider a scenario with an imaginary male participant: Imagine you're an Avy3 instructor and a male ski model turned pro skier with a huge social media following and impressive ski resume takes your class and is pretty incompetent/unprepared and simultaneously vocal and also defensive about his skills? Wouldn't you at least *want* to say something to get the person to look inward and change the way he approaches the mountains so he can stay safe and be more prepared to pass in the future? Wouldn't you want to say something like
    If you want to make the transition from pro skier to mountain guide, stop hiring guides and traveling with others that make decisions for you. Put yourself in situations where you are required to put it all together, apply these skills and observations and form your own opinion everyday, and don’t just regurgitate the opinions of others.
    You talk when you should listen and are strongly defensive from the start. Remember respect is earned and never given. By having such a large social media presence, you set yourself up for added criticism and comment, silence your critics through action and decisions, not words.
    And none of those comments would come from a place of sexism or even resentment.

    It also seems the guide comment got blown out of proportion -- if someone primarily gets out with people more experienced than him/herself, regardless of whether those people are guides or friends, he/she might have a fair number of accomplishments to his/her name without the knowledge/skills to do them solo. I think that's the point the instructor was trying to make. There's a big difference between skiing something (or climbing or anything outside) where you are the leader versus when someone else is the leader.

    Note: I know myself well enough to understand that I'm not a very politically correct person, I don't like to sugar coat things, and I'm also not an experienced instructor/educator, so I would discuss with others (especially my wife) exactly how I gave that sort feedback so it would be well received and not dismissed as some sort of bias. I'd certainly avoid giving feedback that stated or implied the person had hired a guide or gotten out with more experienced people in the past because it's irrelevant, even if I had first-hand knowledge that it was true.

    Again, I don't know Gleich's ski resume (and I certainly don't know her personally), so I'm not trying to say she hasn't skied major stuff solo or as the leader. Obviously, it was stupid to put those things in writing, but if she was as incompetent or unprepared as telefreewasatch says, it's possible they were just trying to get her to change her perspective and gain more experience so she is more prepared for her next class.

    ____________

    All that said, sexism is huge in the backcountry. My wife experiences it routinely where she's the most educated person in the group (has her Avy 1-3, has pro-patrolled, assistant guided, etc), but she's ignored because she's the girl in a group of guys. And when she finally speaks up enough to be heard, she (understandably) comes across as pushy. When you're being ignored, it's near impossible to get people to listen and simultaneously not come across as pushy. It doesn't help that she's been injured lately, and people often mistakenly associate competence in decision making (weather, navigation, snow science, etc) with fitness and skiing ability.

    PS. Gosh, it would be nice if english had a gender-neutral pronoun.
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  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    For the sake of argument, how many of those loose cannons are very knowledgeable but just have a very high risk tolerance vs actually incompetent? Or are those closely connected in your mind?
    Some are knowledgeable but choose to pick instinct over data. Some have a death wish although they won't admit it, they don't give a shit. Some have just gotten lucky over the years and are now over-confident. Some are just straight-up incompetent but that is the rarest breed. Some are bat-shit crazy. Other's I can't fucking figure out at all.

    How do you explain the guy who forgot this transceiver and said we should ski Wolverine anyways, the day after a two foot storm? Conditions were moderate. No tracks in the bowl yet. I can't name names, but we all have heard of him and is very experienced, one of the best.

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by muted View Post
    How do you explain the guy who forgot this transceiver and said we should ski Wolverine anyways, the day after a two foot storm? Conditions were moderate. No tracks in the bowl yet. I can't name names, but we all have heard of him and is very experienced, one of the best.
    I think the Familiarity human-factor in F.A.C.E.T.S. is ultra-heightened in a relatively tiny area like the central Wasatch where, if you're out there 100+ days in the backcountry, you're gonna ski the same zones a bunch of times a season, a bunch of years in a row, and so on.

  25. #175
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    I think that it boils down to:

    1) The feedback was odd and if she really thinks that she was more than competent on the exam and railroaded for her sex or her social media profile or whatever then she should go up the governing body and ask for a re-take or review of her exam and the grading.

    2) Complaining to the internet with a select quote from some feedback the entirety and context of which the internet isn't going to know isn't going to convince anyone other than her loyalists and certainly won't convince the haters to do anything but hate all the more.
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