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  1. #1
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    Rossignol Axial2 120 Demo binding paper template

    Long story short:
    I had a pair of Axial2 120 demo bindings sitting around and thought, since I was already doing another new template [Soly Warden 13 Demo] and needing to update the Attack 13 demo from last year, I'd just see how quickly I could crank this one out.

    Update: Mounted on a real pair of skis, and one other confirmed successful mount. This template should be good.

    A test on a 2x4 first is always a good plan. Or, at minimum, print the paper template and lay the binding on top to confirm it appears to match. Tested with boots I have on-hand here, and back-pressure was correct for BSL's from around ~270-340 - so a pretty wide range. But nothing really large. [If it was right for that range, it's almost certain to be correct across the whole range.]

    Hope it's helpful, even though the binding is a couple of years old now. It was an interesting exercise in any case.

    -Greg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rosi-Axial2-Demo-0.9.pdf  
    Last edited by gregorys; 12-19-2017 at 09:02 PM.

  2. #2
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    Test fit worked for Look spx12 demo (2015)

    Just finished a test fit on my Trusty Pine 2x4. Your paper pattern for Rossi Axial2 demo worked well for my Look spx12 demo. 315 BSL slid in at perfect FWD pressure. Now to drill the skis...

    Thanks Greg!

  3. #3
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    Excellent! Glad it worked for you. [I was pretty sure the template was right, and now I've got a mount I need to do with the pair myself too - so your feedback is handy!]

    Cheers!
    -Greg

  4. #4
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    Woah - there's a post from you I got in email, since I'm subscribed to the thread - but that post isn't here! <creepy>
    [Oh, you probably nuked it, i see you reposted it in the main paper-template thread. I wondered if glue fumes had altered my grasp on reality...]

    I'll quote it.

    Ever tried a demo mount with the front and rear spread further apart (than the standard template) to allow more front and rear shift? I have a 315 BSL, so I could only go 2cm forward from original boot center mount location. The primary reason for using the demo bindings was to experiment with location.


    if you know of any threads, I’d appreciate the link.
    I've never tried to do that - I don't usually mess with boot-center much, moving forward or back. Of all the skis I have mounted, there is not a lot of question on where the ideal mount point is...

    However, it would be trivial to do. I'd be glad to do it on a one-off template for any of the templates I've made.
    I suppose, though I haven't pondered it much, that there would be some ideal spread for each particular BSL to give the widest range of fore-aft movement.

    I don't have the bandwidth to ponder it right this second, but it's an interesting discussion. Can you come up with some formula that would give an ideal toe-to-heel spread for maximum adjust? As noted, if you have a mod you'd like, and can give a spacing adjust in mm, doing a one-off template would literally take a couple of minutes. [especially if you'd do antoher test mount of it, to help weed out any stupid mistakes.]

    I do these in Illustrator, since I'm not an engineering type, and don't have easy access to CAD like solid-edge etc. So, I'm glad to share the original illustrator copy if you wanted to tinker yourself...

    -Greg

  5. #5
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    If we come up with a forumula, it would be pretty easy to implement on a template.
    You'd just:
    spell out how it works,
    put "BSL" measurement marks just like you'd do for a regular non-demo mount so you could adjust toe-heel spacing, and then the user would "adjust" the demo toe-heel spread to the optimal point.

    Sounds pretty cool - if that was the purpose for the demo binding.
    [I suppose you could use a hybrid approach too, say, giving maximum adjust for a range of BSL's - say 25.0-28.0 - that way you could still share the ski with other close BSL's but still have a lot of adjust - it's obviously a trade-off - fit more boots, less fore-aft adjust, and vice-versa.]

  6. #6
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    So, looking at the Rossi - it looks like the tracks have about 60mm of travel in them.

    So, just eyeballing it here: The smallest size is ~265mm.
    Thus, with the heel track all the way forward and the toe all the way back, that would fit a 265 BSL.
    Since, to get maximum adjust, you'd want the heel all the way forward, and the toe *also* all the way forward, you'd want to adjust the spacing accordingly.

    Thus, for a 265mm boot, you'd mount the toe closer by ~60mm than the template has it. I'd suggest 5-10mm less than that, which leaves a bit of adjust - in case you change boots down a size. Up won't matter, other than losing some of the total fore/aft adjust.

    [There's a piece on this binding that fits "between" the toe and heel that has marks for the BSL. If you mount the toe and heel much closer than the template, you'll have to remove the plastic piece from the toe track and forgo the BSL markings, which hardly matter since they'll be largely meaningless anyway.]

    For a larger boot, calculate the difference needed.
    Eg. 370 BSL would [if my calculations are right] need *additional* heel/toe spacing of about 45mm vs the template - I'd probably use 35-40mm for additional flexibility on BSL - if you were to change boots to a smaller size.

    If my calculations are right - that would allow you to more forward/back by about 5.5cm total. So, if you mounted at the center mark, you could go from about +2.75cm to -2.75. [Or, obviously, other ranges if not mounted at the suggested line.]

    As always, a test mount will make clear if this works as you desire and that your/my calculations are reasonable.

    Finally - while I doubt this will cause any issues - it's likely operating the bindings in a way the design didn't account for. The designers never took into consideration that you might set them up for a 370BSL for maximum adjust fore/aft and I suppose it would be possible they would have stresses placed on them that might cause them to work poorly, or even dangerously [Though I doubt that.]

    Some bindings, like the Marker Griffon demo are very similar to the Marker Schizo - and probably are within spec since they use parts that are very similar. I suspect any issues in those cases would be vastly less likely. With this Rossi binding, I really don't *know* - even while I strongly suspect it would be fine.

    YMMV
    -Greg

  7. #7
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    Nov 2017
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    @Gregorys,

    With the smallest boot sizes (258-262) using the factory jig mount, the toe on a Look Spx12 demo binding could shift seven “settings” forward. That’s generally 6.5mm per setting (times two to get 13mm per setting in BSL). As the boot size increase, the number of “settings” available to shift fore and aft would be reduced under the factory jig placement. Skiers with little feet get a bump! The largest boot sizes may not have any adjustment available fore and aft.

    I hypotheisize that for each BSL “setting” over 263/275mm, you could push the toe out 6.5mm.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In the rear, the options to match with each toe setting generally appear to be 4mm, 3mm, 3mm and 3mm different. I further hypothesize that moving the demo heel back (toward the tail from center) the same distance as the toe will yield the expected results. Obv, back pressure must be checked!


    Click image for larger version. 

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    The total spread may preclude you from sharing your quiver with the crew, so I would consider min BSL desired to still allow for adequate forward pressure.l; i.e; how many friends with tiny feet does one person really need?

    With respect to the design, if the smallest BSL allows the toe and heel spread at the ends of their respective tracks, it makes sense that a larger boot would still be allowed to effectively connect at those same ends.

    I’m no engineer, but somebody hand me a 2x4!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #8
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    I hypotheisize that for each BSL “setting” over 263/275mm, you could push the toe out 6.5mm.


    I haven't read your post carefully, but it seems like you're making a mistake here.

    There's going to be some "middle" BSL - I'm guessing around 320 that will be able to adjust the full range forward AND back. If you're _under/smaller_ than that magic 320, you'll have to move the heel/toe closer than standard. If you're larger, you'll move the heel/toe spread wider apart. And how much wider, or more narrow you move will determine the exact spread of BSL's you can accommodate.

    It's a trade-off - if you fit a wider range of BSL's, you'll have less total adjust forward and back, and vice versa.

  9. #9
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    The Rossi Axial2/PX Demo binding template from @Gregorys is confirmed. Just finished a mount of my Look SPX12 Demo bindings on skis. See pics below.

    A few notes: I redrew the template in ACAD so that it would be perfectly aligned lengthwise. I have a large format printer in the office; this template is too big to fit on 11x17 paper. Printed on Mylar so that it would not stretch or shrink. Used a scratch awl to center-punch my holes, a Wintersteiger collared bit on a borrowed drill press, 30-min slow epoxy from Bob Smith Enterprises and a JCool 4nm torque collar on my bit-driver.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
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    I finally got around to remounting some Seth Vicious' with these. [Loaner skis.]
    Mount went fine. So, very confirmed.
    Multiple test mounts [while creating the template] and one off the PDF for this mount. Should be good.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  11. #11
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    Rossignol Axial3 120 demo binding template needed

    So I downloaded the Axial 2 demo template, cut and pasted and find it does not work for Axial 3 120 demo binding.
    Any ideas where to find a template? I have searched all over. Thanks

    Follow-up. In the absence of an Axial 3 template I did the following.
    1) Cut out the Axial 2 template.
    2) Where the two pieces line up on the boot centerline , I moved them apart by 10mm. Ie. lengthened the template.
    3) I marked the centerline using electronic calipers with ski in vice with the sides of the vice used as the borders. Then divide by 2
    and adjust the caliper and mark the centerline after checking the measurement. This way seems to be pretty easy but your caliper need
    to be able to measure an inside measurement.
    4. THE Toe TEMPLATE WILL ONLY WORK FOR THE 2 SCREWS CLOSEST TO THE boot center OF THE SKI. You will have to mount those two
    and then use the binding plate mark and drill the top 2.
    5. The rear template is good to go.
    I tried it out on a 2x4 and it works fine but I am no expert. A real template would be nice to have but this is better than winging it.
    Last edited by tunaseattle; 01-27-2020 at 03:34 PM. Reason: y

  12. #12
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    If you have a ruler [preferrably in mm] and a bit of time, we can create one.

    The easiest way, probably - is to put the heel and/or toe on top of a blank sheet of paper.
    Use a pen [or other method, a nail could work to create indentations on the paper] and mark the hole placements.
    Make your marks as dead-center in the screw-hole as possible. Don't allow the binding to move. [Mark the corners as you start, so you can return it back to center, if it does move.]

    Now measure the distances and mark with lines/arrows.
    Take a picture and send it to me.
    We may have to go back and forth a little - but it's not that hard.

    The final piece is the spacing between the toe and heel.
    I generally find the rough spot, by placing the boot toe in the toe-piece of the binding.
    Take the heel and bring it up to the raised heel of the boot. When there's about 3-4mm of spacing between the boot heel and the curved inner portion of the heel cup on the heel of the binding, stop.

    Without shifting the binding heels or toes, remove the boot.
    Now mark/measure the distance between one set of heel-screws and toe-screws.

    Finally, we'll do a test mount on a board and check back-pressure. If that's right, then carefully eyeball where the boot-center mark is on the boot and transfer that to the board you mounted on. Measure the distance between that mark and both the heel and toe screws. [Both allows us to double-check things.]

    I'll put that into a paper template and it will be an alpha version of the template until someone gets a chance to do a second mount.

    Slidewright also has some good instructions on how to help one of us, who does this sort of thing, create a template. I'll see if I can find those.

    -Greg

  13. #13
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    In searching for slidewright's posting [which I can't find] I ran across this.

    https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...paper+template

    That might make a lot of stuff easier. [Back-pressure will almost certainly be wrong, but it's a good start.]
    I hadn't even really thought about that as an approach.

  14. #14
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    Since the heel winds up back by the forward pressure deflection doing that copier trick, if you know how much that is, maybe fold the paper to take out that much length if you're really going for simple.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    Since the heel winds up back by the forward pressure deflection doing that copier trick, if you know how much that is, maybe fold the paper to take out that much length if you're really going for simple.
    Yeah, that method is going to end up with the binding heel too far back.
    But you'd get accurate spacing on the heel and toe screw patterns.

    I'm guessing how much you'd have to move it forward depends on the elasticity of the heel - and would vary from binding to binding. But I'd guess I could get it pretty close by guessing.

  16. #16
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    Quick bump:

    Is the demo heel pattern the same as a normal Axial2/PX12 pattern? I've got some race skis that use a Rossi pre-drilled plate, and to accommodate several boot sizes I'm hoping to go with a demo heel. I know the demo toe doesn't fit, so would just be eating the difference in boot centers by moving the heel only.

    If all of this is true, I'm on the hunt for a cheap pair of demo heels...

  17. #17
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    The best way to answer this, short of someone already having the answer, is simply print the template and compare to the pattern on the plate. (Which, it appears, you already have.) That's a 5m job. Seriously.

  18. #18
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    Ah Christ, I'm an idiot, I thought the attachment at the top was just a picture of the toe piece mounting pattern. Nevermind.

    Also, to answer my own question, they are the same haha

  19. #19
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    Nov 2021
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    Updated template?

    I know I'm reviving an old thread but does anyone have an updated paper template for the look express models? Or have access to a fcgf101 template that they could snap a picture of with a ruler?

  20. #20
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    Are you wondering if this template matches the Look Express? (The short answer is; I don't know.)

    You could print the template (from the first post in the thread) and put the binding on top of the paper template and look at it. That's a pretty good start to see if they line up or not. (This assumes you have the binding in hand.)

    If it doesn't match up, there are several of us who can help you create a working template, with some effort on your part. (Again, assuming you have the binding.)

    It will require you to measure things accurately on the binding, and probably do a few test-mounts on a plain board. (Like a 2x4, 1x4 etc.) Calipers are handy, but careful measurement with a ruler can work pretty well too.

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