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09-14-2017, 08:45 AM #1Registered User
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Japan a good place to spend a season with young kids?
Thinking of pulling the kids out of school for three months this winter and just fucking off somewhere to ski every day before the kids get too old and want nothing to do with me anymore. Kids are 9 and 11. They're decent skiers but being on the east coast it's a lot of bumps and glades, little to no experience with powder or steep alpine terrain. We only manage to get out a dozen or so times a year. In a previous life before kids I spent winters in Whistler, Jackson, and Verbier. We could always return to Whistler or Verbier, or try something new like Chamonix (I've visited several times and love love love it) but it might be hard to be in these places with amazing technical terrain and not be able to ski any of it because of my kids
So that's why I was thinking Japan.. apparently it snows a shit ton in Jan/Feb, inbounds terrain wouldn't be too challenging for kids, and they get a cultural experience out of it, costs are no more than the alps, and it's somewhere i've never been? Seems like a winner?
So what are the downsides? Is the inbounds terrain -too- mellow? That I would get bored despite the constant fresh snow? Or that the kids might even feel unchallenged? Are the more interesting ski areas super westernized, full of aussies and lacking that unique cultural experience? Is there anywhere big enough that you could get an apartment walking distance from a lift and spend an entire season without getting bored? Or is the way to do it more about checking out different small resorts by car? Less inclined to do the latter.
Any advice would be great, thanks!
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09-14-2017, 02:28 PM #2
As long as.you don't bring any dolphins over, you ought to be fine.
Sent from my XT1650 using TGR Forums mobile appDaniel Ortega eats here.
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09-14-2017, 07:01 PM #3Registered User
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09-14-2017, 08:40 PM #4Registered User
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Personally I would do Chamonix and push the kids a bit. Not the crazy lines, but get them puckering a bit. They'll likely surprise you.
While I love Japan, the mountains might get a bit boring for you if you aren't heading into the backcountry often.
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09-14-2017, 08:52 PM #5Registered User
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I wouldn't be going into the backcountry with the kids at that age. What can you compare the best Japanese resorts to in Canada or the US in terms of terrain?
If the alps, would something like Val D'Isere/Tignes or 3 Vallées be a better choice I wonder? Less of a gong show than Chamonix, less disjointed than Chamonix (have to take bus to get from Flegere to Midi to Montets, etc), endless interconnected lifts, a variety of terrain for all abilities.. don't get a ton of snow but neither does Chamonix.
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09-14-2017, 09:18 PM #6Registered User
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I knew you wouldn't want to take them into the backcountry, that's why I thought you might get bored. Bigger Japanese resorts are still spread out with driving or busses between bases. Rusutsu would be a decent fit, but kind of in the middle of nowhere. I have only skied a few resorts there, but I would compare terrain to non-alpine Whistler.
Agree the resort set up isn't ideal in Cham and likely better options in the Alps. Was only saying there since you mentioned it as a possibility. Euroland is likely best fit for culture + terrain. Don't get me wrong, I love skiing in Japan. Just don't think sticking to one base area for skiing every day would be that awesome there. Maybe others will disagree. Food and culture is awesome.
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09-14-2017, 11:28 PM #7
3 months! lucky kids.
this was meant to be a quick post, but it turned into a whole freaking book! sorry about that.
12 seasons now I've been doing seasons in Hokkaido, specifically based out of Niseko these days.
I've only skied Honshu (the main island of japan) a couple of times, and never spent a season there, so I can't speak for that.
It is true about the snowfall in Japan, especially this far north. For jan/feb its common that I wont even bother getting out of bed unless theres been 15cm or more.
So much snow on the ground means that the terrain becomes trivial. You'd better lean to ski pow quickly, at least falling over won't hurt much.
But if you're looking for warm calm blue sky photogenic days then you should maybe look further south. Expect to see the sky only 2 or 3 days a month. We often get strong winds sandblasting that snow into your face and crazy wind chill. At minimum you need a proper ski jacket, not discount store stuff. I have absolutely loved "bad" weather ever since I was a kid, so I really enjoy that sort of thing, but you/your family may think differently.
The mountains themselves here are far smaller and more mellow than in US, Alps, or Canada. And comparatively the ski resorts are tiny and the runs can be quite short. They do usually go all the way from the top to the bottom of the mountain tho, so sometimes they can keep up in total area. The grooming is usually mid to poor quality also. The pow is such a big plus that it outweighs all the negatives.
As mentioned, any steep areas or cliffs are trivialized by the amount of snow, giving you that soft pillow faceplant style landing. Because there's soo much less risk of hurting myself when falling into pow, I find it difficult to compare the terrain's difficulty with anywhere else. But If you can ski a black run elsewhere, then you can most certainly ski in Japan. Its far more common to see someone digging around having lost a ski after a crash rather than someone getting dragged home by ski patrol.
There are many many many small boutique 1-2 lift family or town owned resort hills. I once read that Japan has (had) more individual ski resorts than the rest of the world combined.
The medium resorts, while cool, are only large enough for at most 5-10 days at them. eg Rusutsu was mentioned. While I 1000% enthusiastically bring people to ski Rusutsu, its awesome, I really couldn't do 3 months there!
There are not many large resorts like in US or Canada, and none the size of those huge sprawling takes-4-days-to-ski-across European ones.
Your options are to base yourself somewhere large enough to not get bored. Find somewhere to stay, dig into the cuture, and let it grow into you.
Or travel between areas every 1 or 2 weeks or something. Probably considerably more expensive tho, how much time do you want to spend travelling vs skiing, and you only scratch the touristy surface of each place.
Niseko is the largest on Hokkaido, probably largest resort area in Japan?, Has an official inbounds area about the size of Breckenridge (I used to live in CO), but when you consider that 100% of the trees are skiiable and it has a heap of easy access slackcountry off piste skiing, its effectively more than double that size. After so many years I've considered looking elsewhere, but even now im finding still new stuff to ski, except well well well off the beaten track. Its large enough to have villages based around it. Smaller resorts have less accom and less facilities, sometimes nothing except their own hotel, but I think walking or shuttle bus distance isn't going to be a difficult thing for you to find anywhere in Japan.
Staying so long, I think you'll get a proper culture shock no matter what you do.
I'm an antisocial online IT working ski bum, I only care about my 100 days of japow a year. I don't care for temples or mountain scenery, nor do I go out of my way for cultural experiences at all. But i still remember my first time here as an amazing experience and how everything was so weird and wonderful and shocking. I actually prefer places with the badly translated signs and restaurant menus because of that first time, but theyre all going away now thanks to google translate
Niseko is 4 resort base areas combined. While the Annupuri base area is very Japanesey, the Hirafu base area is probably about the most westernized ski resort area in the whole of Japan, with some, but arguably the least culture shock. Stay at any other ski resort in Japan you're in for a proper culture shock. But i'd warn that some places would almost certainly be too much of a culture gap for a first timer. Sure it'd be fine for a 4 day holiday, but a family with kids considering a long term stay theres a whole lot more going on.
Hirafu gets a bad rep for having no culture shock because people who are afraid of the language barrier use a travel agent to book a 5 star handheld everything-done-for-you trip. They do nothing extra and follow a guide book, and then have the gall to complain that they got no big culture shock. Instead, for a season, you're probably going to be doing everything yourself, and even everyday things in the local town (Kutchan) like buying groceries will show you some real culture there. Real culture, not that tourist targeted culture shock crap that your step uncle keeps talking about that one time he went to Tokyo on a business trip.
Japanese are very active tourists in their own country. In niseko tourists here are made up of about 1/2 Jap, and the rest is about equal portions of Chinese, Aussies/NZ, Brits, and Scandis (Sweeds, Nord, Danish, etc). Some, but not as many, French, German, South American, Americans and Canadians. It used to be all Aussie, but they've moved on now because the alcohol at local bars here costs too much. A lot of the staff in Niseko (and elsewhere too) are Aussie because there's a very nice working holiday visa agreement between Japan and Aus that's real easy to get, and means they can be paid less than minimum wage.
About every other resort up here is trying to catch up to Niseko in westernization. Some of my secret small getaway resorts have been discovered and have gone westernized. You'll probably find less westerners at other places in Hokkaido, but still expect maybe 1/2 to 1/3 western, eg I found the Nagano/Hakuba area to have just as many westerners.
But the thing is, is that you're mostly on your own. Ski resorts here aren't busy like you see in US or Alps. Imagine Breckenridge on its quietest day during the week, add an event like the superbowl on at the same time, and imagine it had no fresh snow in over a month. This would it equal Niseko (arguably the busiest in Hokkaido) on a busy weekday. All bets are off for weekends tho, the Japanese seem to have at least one public holiday every week.
Hopefully I've given you some ideas on what you might do.
Obviously I'm biased because of where I choose to live, with probably different goals (i only care about pow), so you should keep that in mind. But with the freedom to spend seasons anywhere in the world, I still do choose to spend them here.
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09-15-2017, 02:56 AM #8Mike Pow
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Where are you living now?
What kind of off-snow experience are you looking for?
City and travel each morning?
Or living in a mountain town with short commute by bus or car?
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09-15-2017, 03:38 AM #9
Japanese resorts? Excluding ducking ropes/slack country and small zones of gated or sanctioned off-piste... Big White? No... Deer Valley! Really. But it usually snows often enough to distract the family having fun.
If you want to avoid other foreigners, don't go to Niseko, Hakuba, Myoko, Nozawa and some others. I've lived in one of them for 11 years.
If you want the most lifted terrain in one valley with a township attached to it, go to Hakuba. Or, road trip Hokkaido for more frequent great snow and colder weather.
Generally, it will be hard to find 3 months of suitable family accommodation without paying for 90 days at the daily rate. $$$$$. In general, it is hard (to impossible) to rent a place for a long term seasonal stay at long term discounted prices.
Skiing in Japan is a great way for young skier kids to visit Asia and have fun, make friends, and create positive memories of a very foreign place. Which I think is good for many young western kids. Some kind of home stay with a Japanese skiing family would likely be incredibly awkward at times, but possibly richly rewarding. Don't know how you'd arrange that.Life is not lift served.
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09-15-2017, 08:55 AM #10Registered User
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ahh ya true. i really like the idea of chamonix, i love the town, i especially love summers in chamonix, great climbing, hiking, and biking.. but for skiing it's so disjointed, walking around and bussing with kids, boots, skis, could be really annoying. definitely don't want to need to drive to lifts. and so much of it is south facing. everytime i went the snow was shit on the flegere/brevent side except for the odd time it snowed. grand montets had nice snow but you can only ride the bochard so many times.. it's a gong show getting up montets or midi, book bins in advance, etc.. everything interesting is a bit of a mission. at my advanced aged of 40 not sure how much high consequence skiing i want to do. that's what i liked about verbier, lots of steep interesting terrain that is never more than a 10-15 minute bootpack from a lift, great runouts and is generally fairly low consequence or at least you're rarely exposed. comparatively i spent a week in zermatt and got pretty bored with the lift accessible offerings.
what about val d'isere or st. anton? any experience there? probably have to sell one of my kids to afford the rent for a season, at least verbier you can live cheap in nendaz.
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09-15-2017, 09:12 AM #11
Check out Engleberg. Or Serre Chevalier. Or Andermatt.
Engleberg is pretty big, lots of interesting sidecountry. Decent sized town where another maggot exPat lives with family.
SerreChe is also big with lots of interesting skiing around.
Am@ is smaller, but access to sidecountry and day trip locales like Disentis or Airolo makes options varied and large.Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
>>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<
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09-15-2017, 09:18 AM #12Registered User
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never been to deer valley, but are you saying japanese resorts don't even compare to big white? because big white ranks pretty low for me it's like an east coast hill on the west coast, with an alpine bowl.
i don't want to avoid foreigners at all costs or anything, i would just like to stay in a community that is primarily japanese, not just a hotel community for english speaking tourists. an actual functioning town would be ideal, but then they probably don't exist within walking distance of ski lifts on interesting mountains?
is the whole snow thing legit? looking at this chart: http://www.snowjapan.com/japan-daily...-snowfall-data
niseko gets around 1000cm/year.. but that's what whistler average every year as well, and even my east coast hill jay peak. it's a nice amount of snow if you live there you'll probably get a nice powder day once a week at least. but it doesn't seem like the "oh my god its always tits deep in japan" you kinda always hear about? and why doesn't myoko get more hype, it's averaging 1400cm, more than anywhere else? i thought the hokkaido island was king for snow?
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09-15-2017, 09:22 AM #13Registered User
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i spent a couple weeks in briancon, monetier was nice, rest was ok, nothing too memorable. i spent half my time driving to la grave but i agree briancon would be a good place to stay with a family, proper town, walkable lifts, good difficulty for kids, and have la grave not far away for days the kids don't want to ski.
don't know much about engleberg or andermatt, i remember seeing some guys trip reports from andermatt that looked amazing though
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09-15-2017, 09:28 AM #14
Yes, Monetier has the most challenging skiing and it's not all that rad, but like you write, LG is relatively close as are a lot of other options including the Milky Way which is sort of similar to SerreChe in terms of scary skiing (there's some, but it's not LG). I liked it for it's central location to so much skiing either down towards Vars/Risoul or the other way past the Milky Way, back into France in the Maurienne, like Val Frejus, Val Cenis, Val Thorens.
Engleberg sounds like a better match for you if you want to stay put in just one place.
On the other hand, if you're applying the gnar weighting to your decision, from what I've been told and read, Japan doesn't outweigh SerreChe for sure. In snow quantity and quality, yes...
I loved Andermatt. It's kind of weird with "only" one major tram, but the access off that tram is fantastic and train access to Disentis for a day is so easy.Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
>>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<
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09-15-2017, 09:30 AM #15Registered User
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i'm living in the city now, weekend warrior on the east coast. i want to spend a season somewhere i won't need a car to get to the lifts, and ideally can walk out my apartment and be on a gondola inside 5 minutes, by foot. interesting enough terrain that it's worth me spending a fortune to do a season with my family, and somewhere that gets lots of snow ideally. you know, what everyone wants
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09-15-2017, 09:35 AM #16Registered User
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ya with kids staying in one place would be ideal, really get to know the place. verbier (nendaz) would be perfect really, but i got a really amazing year when i went, snowed like crazy, and i feel like returning there would just be setting me up for disappointment. plus i already know the place, seems a shame to not explore somewhere new, that's half the fun.
i'll definitely check out engleberg, have you been to st. anton or val d'isere? i've heard them both mentioned so much on here. there's also bourg saint maurice/les arcs. but doesn't seem like walking to the funicular would be as straight forward and easy as it was walking to the lifts from briancon.
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09-15-2017, 09:42 AM #17
ayup.
i'll definitely check out engleberg, have you been to st. anton or val d'isere? i've heard them both mentioned so much on here. there's also bourg saint maurice/les arcs. but doesn't seem like walking to the funicular would be as straight forward and easy as it was walking to the lifts from briancon.
Another place that blew my mind was St. Moritz. Easy access to a ton of skiing. But expensive; I don't know anything about long term rentals in St. Moritz.Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
>>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<
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09-15-2017, 09:49 AM #18
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09-15-2017, 09:50 AM #19Registered User
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09-15-2017, 09:59 AM #20
Yes, I've read that St. Moritz is not always dependable for snow.
Andermatt has the Euro rep for consistent snow. The town is smaller and despite all the mad super sidecountry and touring, lift served alone might get repetitive. Then again, it's an hour to Distentis from Am@ by train and a little more to Airolo.Merde De Glace On the Freak When Ski
>>>200 cm Black Bamboo Sidewalled DPS Lotus 120 : Best Skis Ever <<<
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09-15-2017, 11:41 AM #21
Go to Japan, preferably Hokkaido. You said the kids have no experience with powder.
Well guess what.
Then you can do the BC/hike out thing when you can get away, and you ll will get the full onsen/monkey/kneel to eat experience for the family.Well maybe I'm the faggot America
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda
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09-15-2017, 11:54 AM #22
Japan is great for kids. However on the really deep days it can be quite dangerous for them even on the groomers. I've watched grown men nearly suffocate on groomers in Japan on deep days more than once....
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09-15-2017, 11:56 AM #23
This is not an NSFW thread, but I just had a great visual.
Well maybe I'm the faggot America
I'm not a part of a redneck agenda
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09-15-2017, 12:19 PM #24Registered User
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I guess they can stay home on the really deep days Where did you experience your best days in Japan, as far as inbounds/trees are concerned? Everyone says the resorts on Hokkaido aren't very steep.. but what does that mean, no 50 degree chutes? That's ok. But steep enough to keep speed and have fun when it snows like say WH20?
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09-15-2017, 12:22 PM #25
This whole thread puzzles me.
How did your kid get to be 11 years old in 7 years
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