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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    NorCal
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    2,053
    Nice article.

    Hoji's advice method sounds too simplistic to me, but maybe it can work adequately for his 3 particular ski models. Admittedly, I haven't come up with any better method, but I might have enough data in my old notes to create a beta version of an automated model to attack the age-old problem of "What will be my favorite mount position on this ski model?".

    I am unaware of any resource that provides reliable personalized answers to that question, especially considering that nowadays a specific skier might prefer an upright stance on a somewhat symmetric significantly rockered tail, while also preferring a big forward lean stance on a traditional flat-tailed ski, etc. Unfortunately, whatever method I come up with, I'm pretty sure its effectiveness will depend on how much input the user can provide about his/her own tastes, and effectiveness will require a long period of feedback and refinement (or maybe even never-ending data collection, feedback, and refinement).

    Maybe I can create a beta version before peak "mounting season"? When is that? November? December?

    .
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  2. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Stumptown
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    6,128
    I like the second part of Hoji's advice which was basically: you should probably know where you want to mount these if you know what you're doing. Lol. I think if you take his philosophy and apply it to your known style you'll get pretty close.

    Or do his method and just stand on them and see how they feel.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,332
    Quote Originally Posted by Vitamin I View Post
    Yes, remounting 1-2cm back will get you a more floaty tip. But even after that move, the ski will still not be appropriate for driving the significantly rockered tip with a big forward lean stance. You really should try a somewhat upright stance on this ski, no matter where you end up mounting it. By remounting 1-2cm back, not only will you get a more floaty tip, you will also get more supportive self-righting recovery if you ever do start to feel the "over the bars" dragging feeling in that slow flatter snow, and you will feel less angular deflection (i.e. more angular inertia & angular stability, less clanking of tips together in rough snow), and the front half of the edges will feel more stable on chewed up bumpy groomers---but it will become less frisky, pivoty, and agile (not a problem, because reverse camber is easy pivoting no matter how far back you mount it). Also, by remounting back 1-2cm, the tail becomes shorter, but even though the tail is rockered (i.e. less supportive than trad camber), it does not have an upturned twintip at the very end, so I think that shorter tail will still support you just fine. I guess overall, I'd say your remount will gain you more tip, but you're throwing away some pivotability (and high pivotability is obviously what Hoji intended in his design).

    FULL DISCLOSURE: I have not A/B Tested multiple positions on Renegades. I ski the 196cm Rens at -5.5cm (on the manufacturers recommended mark). Feels very good to me, no tip dive for me, but almost TOO pivoty for my taste, so yes I think I'd like the feel even more at -6.5cm (-1.0cm from the mark), and I am confident I'd still retain plenty of easy pivoty-ness at that position. But not a big enough improvement for me to bother drilling more holes. Above, my more precise beliefs about the consequences of remounting a 196cm Ren 1-2cm back are based on my extensive A/B Testing of multiple mount positions on a 196cm Volkl Two, which is not the same ski, but has very similar reverse camber profile, length, and width.

    .
    Thanks for the thoughts. I think you articulated the idea behind my moving them back - I've got more pivoty skis, 186 and 193 EHPs. These are my biggest pow guns for deepest days with the biggest terrain. I also just measured that I'm at 93 from tail, -5cm from center on the 196. Not sure why I picked that mount . I'm definitely going to push them back 1.5-2cm for improved float and a little more tip. Doesn't sound like I have much to lose, like you said, I find them super pivoty already.

    Funny you say that about the volkl two- my buddy and I share BSL so I've taken his 186
    ones out a few times and they felt like I've used them before - they remind me of my devastators and Rens, just mounted a little further back. I would say the ones have equal float to my rens. Underrated ski in my opinion, super versatile, wish they made it in a longer length.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Golden B.C.
    Posts
    328
    Just adding my $.02 to this thread. Here is a link to the 17-18 4frnt catalogue, https://issuu.com/devinsoisson/docs/...on_catalog_web
    on page 22-23 are all the ski numbers (length, weight, rec from tail, side cut from tail, etc...) the side cut from tail vs. rec line from tail are the most interesting for the Hoji, Raven, Ren, Thayne. All those models have the skier up to 4cm (Thayne) to .5cm (187 Hoji) ahead of the sidecut center. I've been mounting mine and friends who struggle with the way the skis handle at the recline on the sidecut center instead. So on my 179cm Hoji I'm -2.5cm from rec (815mm from tail) and my Thaynes are -4cm (850mm from tail). To me it makes the most sense to ski with my boot center right over the narrowest part of the ski AND the center of the rocker profile for the reflectec skis. Its worked really well for me and my buds, but I'm sure others would prefer the skis on the rec line. All the (former) Kye Peterson skis and the Devastator have the rec mounting point matching the sidecut center. Food for thought.

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,332

    Hoji/Renagade Mounting article

    Just went from -5 to -6 on my 196 Rens and Iím honestly shocked how much of a difference it makes. They ski and float better iMo. Why did I ever go -5? Oh right cause it was the longest ski Iíve ever used and I was scared.

    186/193 EHP and 196 Ren comparo coming shortly. 193 EHP is a speed seeking beast missile.
    Last edited by Self Jupiter; 03-18-2018 at 08:37 PM.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    2,045
    Bumping - any mount insights on the Raven??

    184 Raven. Rec is -6, 86cm from the tail.

    322 BSL, so per Hoji's ball-of-foot formula, I should 322 - 284 = 38 mm. Divided by 2 = 19 mm. This suggests I should be at 84 cm from the tail (-8), aka -2 from recommended.

    Seems pretty far back. My inclination is to go -1. Will be mounted with Vipecs. I'm sorta between new-school upright and front-of-boot old-school race style.

    This ski is a little short for me - I'm 6', 190#, but I think that size will be good for intended use. Which is for spring and big days (possibly multi-day) - mixed bag from pow to corn to firm. Complements a Protest for touring.

    Will x-post on Raven thread. https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...terpiece/page9

    [/BLOG]

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    586
    Quote Originally Posted by Self Jupiter View Post
    Just went from -5 to -6 on my 196 Rens and I’m honestly shocked how much of a difference it makes. They ski and float better iMo. Why did I ever go -5? Oh right cause it was the longest ski I’ve ever used and I was scared.

    186/193 EHP and 196 Ren comparo coming shortly. 193 EHP is a speed seeking beast missile.
    Any updates on 186 mount? Just picked up a used pair of 186s. Had them before, mounted at reccomended with Dukes. Something was of with mount point or bindings. Will mount new ones with Pivots. Probably at -1

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,332
    Quote Originally Posted by sf View Post
    Any updates on 186 mount? Just picked up a used pair of 186s. Had them before, mounted at reccomended with Dukes. Something was of with mount point or bindings. Will mount new ones with Pivots. Probably at -1
    Sorry for late reply, this slipped past me- are you asking about 186 EHP Mount? Iíve got it on recommended which is -6 from center iirc. Iím fine with it there. I donít see why going back a cm would be an issue. Iíve never tried 186 Ren so cant help with that.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    586
    Quote Originally Posted by Self Jupiter View Post
    Sorry for late reply, this slipped past me- are you asking about 186 EHP Mount? I’ve got it on recommended which is -6 from center iirc. I’m fine with it there. I don’t see why going back a cm would be an issue. I’ve never tried 186 Ren so cant help with that.
    Yeah, 186 EHPs.
    Thanks

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
    Posts
    448
    So I just scored a pair of early 186 Rens. I remember reading Hoji's post about mount points when I mounted my 184 Ravens, and dutifully put them at -1 per his thoughts on BSL. I like them there.

    BUT: I just measured the Ravens, and the dimple that I used for reference is more like 84cm from the tail, not 86cm like his post suggests. The skis also measure about 182cm actual (slightly hard to get it spot on with bindings on them), so that puts the dimple at about -7 from true center (not -6) and therefore I'm at more like -8. The Rens measure 184.8cm actual. Per the Hoji formula, if I want to put them at -5.5, plus 1cm back for BSL for a total of -6.5, that's about 86cm from the tail. Seem like that's where I should go? The fact that my Ravens are so much farther back than they're apparently supposed to be is giving me pause.

    Edited to add: It's possible that my coffee just hasn't kicked in yet, but I can't see any sign of a mount point indicator on the Rens.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Stumptown
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    6,128
    Should be a mark in the sidewall I believe.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
    Posts
    448
    There is "the white room *4FRNT LOGO* Salt Lake City" written on the sidewall. Is the 4FRNT logo in the middle supposed to be the mark?

    Edit: I'll measure the location of the logo when I get home.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,332
    -6.5 from center for the 186 sounds pretty good to me, but I havenít been on the 186. See a few posts above for where I had my various Hoji designs mounted and even remounted.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
    Posts
    448
    Yeah, I read the whole thread before I posted. Appreciate the input. Having thought about it, and having stood on 'em drinking a beer in my basement, I think -6.5 sounds about right (I'm 6', 165lb and my boots are all 302-307 BSL, FWIW).

    I'll measure the position of the 4FRNT logo on the sidewall as a sanity check first.

    Planning to put a pretty light touring binding on them to start, and might insert them for Pivots too, if we really click. I don't really need another resort powder rig, but maybe these will blow my mind.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Alta
    Posts
    708
    Quote Originally Posted by HAB View Post
    There is "the white room *4FRNT LOGO* Salt Lake City" written on the sidewall. Is the 4FRNT logo in the middle supposed to be the mark?

    Edit: I'll measure the location of the logo when I get home.
    No mark on any wood sidewall renegade. Just straight pull measure from the tail and use the hoji method. I think his recommended mount points are key to getting the feel of a hoji designed ski.


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  16. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Mid-tomahawk
    Posts
    448
    Yeah, I'm not trying to deviate too far from his recommendation. More just trying to make sense of how to go about it, since there's some disagreement between his recommended measurement from true center vs. the measurement from the tail, and then also the dimple pressed into my Ravens.

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North Vancouver, BC
    Posts
    787
    I just like the fact that he tells you that his skis are good anywhere from -5cm to -8cm. So many other brands of skis come out with a set mount point....but they give no indication of what a suitable range could be? You have to search.

    Just pick somewhere from +1cm (-5cm) to -2cm (-8cm) on Rens/Hojis and youíre good.

    Iíve liked my previous version 186 Rens and 187 Hojis at -5cm. No tip dive, 287mm bsl
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