Jong Seeks Tire/Technique Advice re: Tires "giving" in Hard Turns

[ill-advised strategy]

So, still pretty new to dirt (weirdly, was really into mtb from about 1987-1995, then rode no dirt at all for 20 years)....and starting to ride more downhill.

I'm starting to notice tires folding in hard banked turns. What are the usual suspects there? Tire pressure? Make/model of tire? Technique?

It's summer, we're bored....teach me some shit about cornering and tires and stuff:

Bike is an El Mariachi, Ardent Front, X-King rear at roughly 30psi. Currently weigh 230lbs.

this is the trail I've been riding the most, it's moist grippy dirt. I love the turns, and the most fun thing about riding has been laying into the turns, so I hate for it to start feeling sketchy when the tires are squirming when I up the speed a bit:

[Skistack]

What size tires and what rims? Your rims are probably too narrow for your tires. Tire squirm should not be an issue at 30psi, that's pretty high. Super fun looking trail!

[mtngirl79]

Front tire will wash out if you aren't weighting the front wheel in a turn. Most people naturally want to shift their weight back when they initiate a turn. That will make your front tire washout if you are going fast enough and/or laying it down

[mntlion]

The tires you have are not the burliest (depending on model) I would look for something with a true DH casing and see how that feels?

pressure is fine, but try a bit more or less as well

rims/wheels might be the issue, but that is a MUCH more expensive upgrade, so start with rubber.

maybe you just need that new 559 enduro wheel everyone is talking about? https://www.pinkbike.com/news/felt-b...size-2014.html

[grskier]

At 230 and if the casing is rolling try a beefier casing and maybe then play with the psi.....

[ill-advised strategy]

OK, good deal on tire/psi recommendations.

Also, mtg: I totally sit back, so will slowly play with getting centered. I definitely fear going otb....gotta get over it.

[Bruce Springskiin]

Start by adjusting PSI, it is pretty cheap. At 230 you are going to be able to deflect 30 psi, especially if the rim is narrow and the tire section looks more lie an O than a U. If you can not find your happy spot with PSI, a wider rim option would be a nice improvement.

[kidwoo]

Unless you're running 3.0 tires, your rims are fine. Every single world cup dh race has been won on 21-25mm rims this year (and the year before that, and the year before that), on tires as big or bigger than what most people are running on trail bikes. Yes that's with dh tires but the speeds are proportionally a different universe than what you or I turn with.

Ardents don't really have the stoutest sideknobs so it's entirely possible you're just out riding them. Not weighting the front isn't going to help but if you're scared of doing that, it may be because the tires have programmed you not to trust them already. Moar pressure first because as said, it's cheap and easy. After that, try a tire with some better sideknobs.

You also just might be riding a tight trail with turns that don't match 'trail speed'. Especially with 230lbs of momentum. In which case, don't even worry about your front tire. Pull up/unweight the front and pivot the bike around on the rear to turn it. And then buy a better tire anyway because not every turn is going to be like that.

[creaky fossil]

'tis a true shame and pity, but I know quite a few people who can rail corners on tiny-knobbed tires like an Ardent or most any Schwalbe or Conti.

there's all sorts of ways to corner. you don't have to slash-and-burn-the-turn and if you weigh 230 lbs and try the slash style you're gonna destroy tires, rims, wheels, frames more regularly than someone like me who weighs 145 lbs.

you can turn like Bode Miller (true slasher, exciting, but inconsistent) or you can turn like Ted Ligety (true railer, somewhat boring, but consistent).

it's up to you.

if I weighed 230 lbs, I'd ride like an antelope, barely impacting the ground, because I want my gear to last a long time.

I'd tell the idiots who say "ride it like you stole it" to go engage in auto-fornication.

I would not recommend any tire changes. I'd work on cornering technique with some experimentation on line choice, entry speed, braking points/amounts at turn entry. getting the tire to do that work for you won't tell you anything about where your cornering could be improved.

Also, mtg: I totally sit back, so will slowly play with getting centered. I definitely fear going otb....gotta get over it.

if your fork is adjusted poorly (too much PSI/too firm a coil; too much damping on R or C side) you'll find it hard to trust weighting the front tire.

[forty]

You also just might be riding a tight trail with turns that don't match 'trail speed'.

this
at full pace that trail is manic panic mode, the berms mix up radii and riding style a lot, you really need to know the trail well to rip it
how does eh line feel in comparison?

fyi hemi was my fave trail in marquette, really want to explore some of the old freeride area stuff though, didnt get a real thorough tour last year

[grinch]

Sweet looking trail. Just keeps going.
Wouldn't be my choice of tires but I don't think that's the problem. For that kind of trail I'd run those pressures at 170lbs. At your weight fit that trail is run more psi and it's dh so dh casing. A few rocks in there so 1000g plus tire on front atleast and dual casing rear at a minimum. I typically run 1000g tires at 27-29 psi rear 24-25 front on our trails when I'm pedalling. Add a couple psi if I'm shuttling and another couple psi if I'm at the bike park(lots of berms and dirt jumps). Besides stopping the sidewalk from folding in the berms it's just carries more speed between the jumps. You don't have to push for speed to make the jumps. Just relax and let them come at you. The ability to push harder in the turn helps carry that speed too. Dh casing semi slick in the rear is super fun for these trails(schwalbe rock razor, maxxis minion ss, specialized butcher) but they're not great on normal trails when you need traction and the minimal tread gives away casing protection

[SJG]

I have personal experience that the X-king is not going to hold up to what you are expecting it to. Get a Maxxis rear IMO.

DHF/DHR will do what you want for sure.

[ill-advised strategy]

here's a weird follow-up....

as an old ski racer, my instinct is to get as much of the turn done early as possible, but in experimentation I can see the way the berms are worn and set up that it works better to "dive in" in a way that feels "late" (as a ski racer) and sort of hit the berm hard on the lower end. Once I started doing that, I seemed to have an easier time carrying speed and fewer sketchy moments, but that moment of loading up the G's at the bottom of the berm seems to be where I'm folding tire.
How about it? Bad technique? Good technique? Rider's choice?

[kidwoo]

in experimentation I can see the way the berms are worn and set up that it works better to "dive in" in a way that feels "late" (as a ski racer) and sort of hit the berm hard on the lower end. Once I started doing that, I seemed to have an easier time carrying speed and fewer sketchy moments, but that moment of loading up the G's at the bottom of the berm seems to be where I'm folding tire.
How about it? Bad technique? Good technique? Rider's choice?

Sounds about right to me. Maybe belly out the ones and go a little higher (bigger arc) on the ones you think you're going to break traction on.

[mtngirl79]

take a clinic.

serious.

also, a cross country hardtail is a little terrifying to learn downhill on says the girl that use to go over the bars once a ride if not more... my method was go over the bars so much that it isnt scary anymore. Its truly special when you don't let go of the bars when you go over them and bring the bike down on top of you.

if the bike has a bigger fork on it than it was designed to have it may make it really fucking weird in turns... says the girl that spent a year on an old kona designed for 80 mm of travel with a 140 mm fork...

buy kona process 134 and reap the rewards of spending a year on a hard as fuck to ride bike and pass everyone!

also, I was taught to enter berms high...

[creaky fossil]

here's a weird follow-up....

as an old ski racer, my instinct is to get as much of the turn done early as possible, but in experimentation I can see the way the berms are worn and set up that it works better to "dive in" in a way that feels "late" (as a ski racer) and sort of hit the berm hard on the lower end. Once I started doing that, I seemed to have an easier time carrying speed and fewer sketchy moments, but that moment of loading up the G's at the bottom of the berm seems to be where I'm folding tire.
How about it? Bad technique? Good technique? Rider's choice?

It's been forever -- as in, not since I rode motos in 1970s-80s -- since I saw a berm that supported a variety of line options. Every MTB trail berm I've seen in the past 15 years has been like this:

1. WOW! Bermed turn!
2. OOPS! Why did the berm wall give out 2/3 or 3/4 through the arc?
3. Turn blown!

On such "berms" a square-off seems wise, but squared turns are tough on the bike & tire. Even for my skinny self. Maybe I dislike squaring a turn when there's no throttle on the right grip.

If you were gonna arc that turn and it was hardpack and you're on ski gear, how would you approach it?

Do your legs absorb those G-forces at the square-off moment as easily as a MTB's rear suspension?

[muted]

Bad technique? Good technique? Rider's choice?

The issue is your weight. Try tires with firmer sidewalls then slowly up PSI if necessary.

[SB]

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f85_1500905190

can you do this?

[muted]

Well, the other TGR clydesdale just weighed in with his video link, I'll check out now. I can't add anything after that.

[Eastcoastdan]

here's a weird follow-up....

as an old ski racer, my instinct is to get as much of the turn done early as possible, but in experimentation I can see the way the berms are worn and set up that it works better to "dive in" in a way that feels "late" (as a ski racer) and sort of hit the berm hard on the lower end. Once I started doing that, I seemed to have an easier time carrying speed and fewer sketchy moments, but that moment of loading up the G's at the bottom of the berm seems to be where I'm folding tire.
How about it? Bad technique? Good technique? Rider's choice?

I weigh about 220. Railing berms and squaring off turns is fun! But at our weight class is demanding on equipment.

Alot of weird advice here... some of it not what you are looking for I think. If your issue is folding the tire over, a combination of thicker casing and/or higher psi is the answer. No need to change your technique if it works and you are having fun!

I run Maxxis Double Down casing tires at about 28/31psi front/rear. If I had a hardtail I would probably add a few psi to the rear. I find this combo of thick sidewall/psi works really well for me. If I were on a lighter tire (I used to run EXO casing) I would have to run slightly higher psi on a smooth bermed trail like the one in your video to keep from feeling tire squirm. On the other hand some people like the feel of low psi and the forgiving traction breakaway point that it provides.

As long as its fun you're doing it right! For me fun is going fast and hard, so your results may vary

[Name Redacted]

Get rid of those XKings. I've just blown my second bead on a rear X-King on a really fast/bermed trail. Continentals must have a weak bead and sidewall or something.

[SJG]

X-king = XC = not charging down gnar or rallying around berms pulling Gs. The X-king is stiffer than a XC Schwalbe, but is certainly not stout enough for a Clyde on berms IMO. I was having similar problems with X-kings when I weighed 190, hence my comments.

[ghosthop]

How the times have changed.

When you're ready to invest some $$, put the ardent in the back and a DHF or something of that ilk, i.e. beefier side knobs and wider transition channel, up front. Doubledown casing to support your weight, as has been mentioned. You'll see the improvement in technique as you begin to trust the front end of your bike to not wash out on you.

It's the same concept as teaching a newb to initiate turns from the front of their ski in soft snow. Anyone rational would start that person on boards with enough surface area to support comfortably moving weight forward. Just because an advanced skier can ride skinny boards in a wide variety of conditions with good technique doesn't make that the best option for those learning. However, I would be leery of wider tires/rims the same way I would be leery of very exaggerated 5 point sidecut. Oftentimes fun and ease of use will come at the expense of skill and versatility. It's not a perfect analogy, but hopefully, you get the point.

2.3 Minon DHF is still one of the best starting points, IMO

As always, YMMV

[XXX-er]

I.

I run Maxxis Double Down casing tires at about 28/31psi front/rear. If I had a hardtail I would probably add a few psi to the rear. I find this combo of thick sidewall/psi works really well for me. .)

went on a group ride with some of the Cycle logic types and I noticed 7 out of 7 guys were riding Maxxis

[Damian Sanders]

So, still pretty new to dirt (weirdly, was really into mtb from about 1987-1995, then rode no dirt at all for 20 years)....and starting to ride more downhill.

I'm starting to notice tires folding in hard banked turns. What are the usual suspects there? Tire pressure? Make/model of tire? Technique?

It's summer, we're bored....teach me some shit about cornering and tires and stuff:

Bike is an El Mariachi, Ardent Front, X-King rear at roughly 30psi. Currently weigh 230lbs.

this is the trail I've been riding the most, it's moist grippy dirt. I love the turns, and the most fun thing about riding has been laying into the turns, so I hate for it to start feeling sketchy when the tires are squirming when I up the speed a bit:

You haven't stated which tire width you're running. If it's a 2.25 Ardent with a 2.2 X-King, it really isn't enough tire to be comfortable in that type of riding. A 2.4/2.4 setup in those tires would be more comfortable.

If you have the 2.4's, you should be aware that the Ardent only comes in single and DC compounds, neither of which are particularly soft or grippy. That trail looks a good amount of firm clay soil and small rocks, which can be gripped better with a softer compound. You'll be much more confident with a Maxxis 3C maxx-terra compound tire in the front.

Since it's a 29er, for all around I'd try a DHF 2.3 3C in the front, and DHR2 2.3 DC in the rear, or the 2.3 Agressor in the rear for better rolling and climbing with a slight sacrifice of braking and cornering traction. If you're really frisky and don't mind boat anchor climbing, try a DHF 2.5 3C in the front, and DHR2 2.4(WT) 3C (or DC for better rolling) in the rear.

Also you may want to consider your fork setup. If it's rigid, you're going to have some trouble with the front tire staying in contact with the ground compared to people with suspension bikes. If you're running suspension, you may want to reduce your compression damping to improve traction, or on most forks a decrease of rebound damping will also decrease compression damping.

You could also try a slightly longer stem to help naturally get your weight further forward over the front tire.