New Boots! Need input

[gregL]

Don't forget the Lupo TI.

The Lupo Ti is as powerful and precise as most alpine boots, but at 2139 grams it weighs about the same, too. The Carbon Ti (Team for 2018) is in the same weight class as the XT Freetour and Cochise, but you may balk at the price. The old-school Lupo walk mode is also pretty limited as well.

If I recall, J_Berg is planning on touring half of his days in this boot - if that's true weight becomes important. If you love the way 3 piece boots ski and don't have a low volume foot, the new Lupo AX is roomier (101 mm, but not a boat like the Panterra) and quite a bit lighter (will try to weigh one soon, it's under my desk) because they're using a new plastic (Irfran). The new walk mode is also much better.

[J_Berg]

The Lupo Ti is as powerful and precise as most alpine boots, but at 2139 grams it weighs about the same, too. The Carbon Ti (Team for 2018) is in the same weight class as the XT Freetour and Cochise, but you may balk at the price. The old-school Lupo walk mode is also pretty limited as well.

If I recall, J_Berg is planning on touring half of his days in this boot - if that's true weight becomes important. If you love the way 3 piece boots ski and don't have a low volume foot, the new Lupo AX is roomier (101 mm, but not a boat like the Panterra) and quite a bit lighter (will try to weigh one soon, it's under my desk) because they're using a new plastic (Irfran). The new walk mode is also much better.

Exactly. I read a really good blister review about the Zero G's. Sounds like exactly what I need - 4 buckle boot that makes no sacrifices in downhill performance and limited sacrifices in uphill performance. As this will be my one boot for all skiing - resort and bc

[TahoeJ]

I would highly recommend the Cochise Pro line if they're a good fit for your foot, especially the most recent version where no sole swapping is necessary between tech and DIN. I was about 50 / 50 last year and actually went from the 130 to the 120 to be slightly more touring oriented (and a bit softer on drops). Going Zero G accomplishes the same thing of course but I haven't tried them so can't comment on the difference.

[J_Berg]

I would highly recommend the Cochise Pro line if they're a good fit for your foot, especially the most recent version where no sole swapping is necessary between tech and DIN. I was about 50 / 50 last year and actually went from the 130 to the 120 to be slightly more touring oriented (and a bit softer on drops). Going Zero G accomplishes the same thing of course but I haven't tried them so can't comment on the difference.

Hell yeah. Thanks for the input man

[auvgeek]

The Lupo Ti is as powerful and precise as most alpine boots, but at 2139 grams it weighs about the same, too. The Carbon Ti (Team for 2018) is in the same weight class as the XT Freetour and Cochise, but you may balk at the price. The old-school Lupo walk mode is also pretty limited as well.

Yeah, I meant the carbon TI.

Exactly. I read a really good blister review about the Zero G's. Sounds like exactly what I need - 4 buckle boot that makes no sacrifices in downhill performance and limited sacrifices in uphill performance. As this will be my one boot for all skiing - resort and bc

Despite all the marketing hype to the contrary, no touring boot skis as well as a race boot, IMHO. Some get close, but the lighter you go, the worse they ski at speed in choppy snow. There is simply no substitute for mass in boots or skis. I get that you want one boot for everything, and that's definitely doable, but realize that it will sacrifice both downhill and touring performance. The key is finding the right balance for you. Even setting fit aside, there is no boot that is objectively the best for 50/50 inbounds and touring. If you're coming from touring in alpine boots with no walk mode, you may find that a 1800-2000g boot better suits your needs than a 1500g boot.

My advice: go to Larry and Bent Gate. Try on as many boots in the 1500-2000g range as you can. Buy whatever fits and flexes best.

How many days do you expect to tour in a season? How much vert is a typical touring day for you?

[galibier_numero_un]

gregL is also a smoother skier than most anyone.

This is a critical observation when taking advice from folks here. Skiing style will definitely color your preferences.

... Thom

[ASmileyFace]

I've skied in the first gen Freedom SL for a few seasons now. As a 50/50 boot it really hits the mark. But I started touring 75%+ of my days last season and I found myself wanting something lighter and with a better walk mode. Fit wise I got mine done at Larry's and they've been perfect. I've put 20 mile 6k+ days on them with only the discomfort you'd expect.

You should go try on the Freedom SL and theRS for sure. If they fit well then they would work well for what you're looking for.

[XXX-er]

.
Despite all the marketing hype to the contrary, no touring boot skis as well as a race boot, IMHO. Some get close, but the lighter you go, the worse they ski at speed in choppy snow. There is simply no substitute for mass in boots or skis..

I gottaa agree with this ^^ statement, my Vulcans are stiff as fuck but no way they ski like a 4 buckle overlap boot

[J_Berg]

I gottaa agree with this ^^ statement, my Vulcans are stiff as fuck but no way they ski like a 4 buckle overlap boot

Right, obviously. It's all comprise. You can't expect World Cup downhill stiffness/flex characteristics from a boot that's also designed to help drag skis uphill

[XXX-er]

right but in spite of suposedly being 130 they don't control a ski better than my 110 flex alpine boots but you just pick the best of the compromise

Season before last the Vulcans to some extent were a "one boot" but that was in part due to what binding was on what ski was on what ski

[auvgeek]

Right, obviously. It's all comprise. You can't expect World Cup downhill stiffness/flex characteristics from a boot that's also designed to help drag skis uphill

Which was exactly my point when you wrote:

Sounds like exactly what I need - 4 buckle [touring] boot that makes no sacrifices in downhill performance

I'm just saying you need to find the best boot for your foot and your usage, which may not be the best boot for me or anyone else on this board. Having tried the one-boot thing, I decided to go back to alpine boots and touring boots instead of one boot for both. But I like to ski the way I like to ski. If you ski differently, perhaps you won't notice as much of a difference. Some people are fine skiing the TLT inbounds. Again, how much vert is a typical touring day for you and how many days a year do you tour? If you're really constrained to an alpine binding, your options are cut down significantly. Do your old alpine boots still function? Can you use those inbounds and buy a boot strictly for touring? IMO, the answer to these questions (as well as fit) will drive your decision between a 1500g boot with a glued on sole and a 2000g boot with an interchangeable sole (and everything in between).

Since you want specific suggestions, I would try all of these on and buy whatever fits and flexes best. FWIW, 4 buckles vs 3 buckles doesn't determine anything about the flex. Roughly heaviest to lightest:

Pinnacle (known durability issues; not sure if resolved)
Freedom
Cochise
Lupo Carbon Ti
Freetour XT
QST Pro 130
Beast
Vulcan
Mtn Lab
ZeroG
RS2
Hawx Ultra XTD

Don't forget that your foot, lower-leg shape, and overall stance can drastically influence the stiffness and quality of the flex. What one person deems progressive, you might find flexes like a brick wall, and even overall stiffness is subjective. For example, the OG Cochise felt like a brick wall to me (even stiffer than my Lange ZB plug boots) because it had poor heel hold and there was so much volume in the upper cuff that I had to over buckle it to get it snug. The Vulcan, OTOH, doesn't feel that stiff, partly because the instep buckle holds my heel down well.

Sorry for the treatise—I really am trying to help.

[gregorys]

Pinnacle (known durability issues; not sure if resolved)

I've had the K2 Pinnacle for the last two years. I've got a ton [well, actually just a few, considering the crowd here - 50+ days] of time on them inbounds. They're heavy, and I've yet to get them out in the BC - so I can't vouch for them on the up. But they are IMO, very nice on the down. [They squeeeeek a lot when flexed though, if that annoys you.]

I've not had anything fall off, or cause issues - perhaps I've just been lucky, but they seem pretty bomber. [I got mine for around $100 with only a couple of days on them, so can't complain about the price.] My impression was, if you didn't have the first few sets off the line, the durability issues were not huge. Obviously they haven't been a problem for me.

Fit's a personal thing, but I've been really happy with mine - and they have a LV and regular volume shell to help on fit. The liners are quite nice. The walk locks seem solid - staying in whatever mode you put them in.

And I think you could find a pair pretty cheap. [They're not the new fancy shiny stuff anymore...]
If you can stand the weight and fit is ok, I'm pretty sure you'll like how they ski.

[Skeeze]

Which was exactly my point when you wrote:


I'm just saying you need to find the best boot for your foot and your usage, which may not be the best boot for me or anyone else on this board. Having tried the one-boot thing, I decided to go back to alpine boots and touring boots instead of one boot for both. But I like to ski the way I like to ski. If you ski differently, perhaps you won't notice as much of a difference. Some people are fine skiing the TLT inbounds. Again, how much vert is a typical touring day for you and how many days a year do you tour? If you're really constrained to an alpine binding, your options are cut down significantly. Do your old alpine boots still function? Can you use those inbounds and buy a boot strictly for touring? IMO, the answer to these questions (as well as fit) will drive your decision between a 1500g boot with a glued on sole and a 2000g boot with an interchangeable sole (and everything in between).

Since you want specific suggestions, I would try all of these on and buy whatever fits and flexes best. FWIW, 4 buckles vs 3 buckles doesn't determine anything about the flex. Roughly heaviest to lightest:

Pinnacle (known durability issues; not sure if resolved)
Freedom
Lupo Carbon Ti
XT Freetour
Cochise
QST Pro 130
Beast
Vulcan
Mtn Lab
ZeroG
RS2
Hawx Ultra XTD

Don't forget that your foot, lower-leg shape, and overall stance can drastically influence the stiffness and quality of the flex. What one person deems progressive, you might find flexes like a brick wall, and even overall stiffness is subjective. For example, the OG Cochise felt like a brick wall to me (even stiffer than my Lange ZB plug boots) because it had poor heel hold and there was so much volume in the upper cuff that I had to over buckle it to get it snug. The Vulcan, OTOH, doesn't feel that stiff, partly because the instep buckle holds my heel down well.

Sorry for the treatise—I really am trying to help.

Solid list. I currently have the 16/17 Cochise 130 and wanted to note that it is considerably heavier than the XT Freetour and Lupo Carbon TI. The shell is made from Polyether that is going to be more similar to a downhill boot feel (I don't notice a performance difference in choppy snow compared to the Dalbello KR2 Pro) than Grilamid/Triax/Carbon shells, but also heavier. I never tried on the old Cochise, but the 16/17 is said to fit very differently--I have a low volume heel and lower leg and the new Cochise fits well.

The 16/17 Cochise also walks pretty decently, but it's heavy enough that I'm thinking of getting the Hawx Ultra XTD for next year as a touring boot. Given that I made my Cochises more downhill-focused by adding heavy booster straps, I expect a weight difference of >600 grams between the two boots.

[swissiphic]

Don't forget that your foot, lower-leg shape, and overall stance can drastically influence the stiffness and quality of the flex. What one person deems progressive, you might find flexes like a brick wall, and even overall stiffness is subjective. For example, the OG Cochise felt like a brick wall to me (even stiffer than my Lange ZB plug boots) because it had poor heel hold and there was so much volume in the upper cuff that I had to over buckle it to get it snug. The Vulcan, OTOH, doesn't feel that stiff, partly because the instep buckle holds my heel down well.

Sorry for the treatise—I really am trying to help.

Totally agree with this. I thought my garmont deliriums felt brick like when I first skied them with stock liners. Turned out that the lower leg wasn't wrapped with enough liner foam to actively engage the flex of the shaft of boot...switching to high volume intuition foam filled in the gaps and the boot became an extension of my lower leg and lived it's potential as a potently laterally and rearwardly stiff but very damp and progressively smooth forward flexing boot. With the stock liner, I would just bang my shin against the front of upper cuff. With liner change, entire forward area of shin engages liner/boot with snug ankle/heel hold providing the basal support and skiing game was changed. Feel the same way about my new vulcans.

Like xxx'er always said, fit first.

[auvgeek]

I currently have the 16/17 Cochise 130 and wanted to note that it is considerably heavier than the XT Freetour and Lupo Carbon TI.

Updated list to reflect that. I was going from memory.

For anyone who hasn't seen it (or didn't remember like me), evo has a sweet boot weight chart: https://www.evo.com/guides/alpine-an...i-boot-weights Just be careful that you're comparing the same sizes—sometimes the only size weighed is different between boots and you have to do some weird interpolation/extrapolation.

[gregL]

evo has a sweet boot weight chart: https://www.evo.com/guides/alpine-an...i-boot-weights

Dalbello Lupo AX 120 26.6 = 1788 grams

[Norseman]

Thanks, bookmarked.

[doebedoe]

Dalbello Lupo AX 120 26.6 = 1788 grams

Could you compare/contrast the AX last with--say--the cochise? Seems like a competitor boot in the slightly more-downhill focused boot with alpine sole compatibility. But not much info out there on it yet.

[gregL]

Could you compare/contrast the AX last with--say--the cochise? Seems like a competitor boot in the slightly more-downhill focused boot with alpine sole compatibility. But not much info out there on it yet.

On my foot as I write this. I would say it's generally a bit higher volume than the current 2017/18 Cochise/Zero G last, 101mm forefoot vs. 99mm forefoot. Also taller over the forefoot and not quite as tight in the medial midfoot area. Heel seems comparable. I could ski 1/2 day in the AX without mods, which wasn't really feasible in the Tecnica, though the Zero G fits like a glove after a bit of work.

[gregL]

OEM sole on the Dalbello Lupo AX 120 is GripWalk, so rockered with smooth AFD plate but not as high as WTR or ISO 9523. You may run into trouble getting a shop to sign off on it in a WTR binding.

Walk mode lever is a little sticky - you have to really lean into it to get the lever in and out, but the range of motion is pretty good.

[doebedoe]

OEM sole on the Dalbello Lupo AX 120 is GripWalk, so rockered with smooth AFD plate but not as high as WTR or ISO 9523. You may run into trouble getting a shop to sign off on it in a WTR binding.

Walk mode lever is a little sticky - you have to really lean into it to get the lever in and out, but the range of motion is pretty good.

Is it safe to assume that the Lupo AX 120 will have a DIN sole available to replace the GripWalk?

[gregL]

Is it safe to assume that the Lupo AX 120 will have a DIN sole available to replace the GripWalk?

I wouldn't assume anything until I got my hands on the soles and had them screwed to my boots. Hopefully it's the same pattern as the regular Lupo Ti sole, but the ISO 5355 alpine sole for that was very hard to locate initially (I know a few people who've since found them). A good question for MDV USA.

[gregL]

Marker Dalbello Volkl USA sent this answer: "Yes it is the same lupo ti alpine sole kit" and they should be available this fall.

[doebedoe]

Marker Dalbello Volkl USA sent this answer: "Yes it is the same lupo ti alpine sole kit" and they should be available this fall.

Awesome, thanks!