DC-10 Fire Bombers?

[BCMtnHound]

The primary fixed-wing airtanker fleet in BC is comprised of four Air Tractor AT-802F Fire Boss amphibious airtankers. The electra and BAE146 are contracted out as needed.
The Martin mars was last assigned to California, but afaik has not has a contract for a couple of years and is gathering dust on Vancouver Is. Damn impressive big bird, but just not practical for most modern wildfire suppression support.

[mecc69]

My buddy was flying lead plane in Chile this winter(summer down there) with the 747. I had lunch with his wife at the ski hill and she showed me a pic of the lead plane flying through the smoke, I thought cool but then saw the 747 through the haze behind the lead plane and it filled the entire screen. It was pretty amazing.

Yes, these guys have balls, buddy was a smoke jumper and then flew the jumper plane as he got older and then started flying lead.

Mr. Tackman? I once flew in his co-pilot seat point to point. I'm out of that game now but follow the wildfire news...

Really neat interview with him on fireaviation.com where he talks about overcoming the language barrier between him and the Chilean military pilots by "wagging" his hand back and forth to get the 747 and lead lined up.

[mecc69]

Most of the time, for most fires, the smaller prop aircraft are much more efficient and cost-effective. Where the VLATs are much more effective is at keeping the public and politicians off fire managers' asses because it looks like everything is being done.

There's probably not as much public and political pressure up there in northern Canuckistan, so fire managers probably don't feel the pressure to have big fucking less effective noise makers/photo op bait.

Well, DC 10 Tanker Carrier would argue they can deliver retardant for half the price of the equivalent number of large airtanker drops. I agree on the effectiveness, but really, how many retardant drops are actually effective or necessary to accomplish the objective? (There were a handful of folks running around chasing airtankers for the last few years trying to capture why it was ordered and if it was effective in meeting the objective in an attempt to actually answer that question.)

You want to talk about a political waste of money other than stupid retardant drops? Look at the S. CAL USFS NVG helitack operation.

[Meadow Skipper]

Well, DC 10 Tanker Carrier would argue they can deliver retardant for half the price of the equivalent number of large airtanker drops. I agree on the effectiveness, but really, how many retardant drops are actually effective or necessary to accomplish the objective? (There were a handful of folks running around chasing airtankers for the last few years trying to capture why it was ordered and if it was effective in meeting the objective in an attempt to actually answer that question.)

A large amount of delivered retardant is one thing, getting it in the right place at the right time is a whole 'nother thing. VLATs are great if the fire perimeter is in a long, straight line but you seem to have the background to know that doesn't happen very often, at least not where you can get crews in to work the retardant line. And retardant without boots on the ground to follow up is kind of retarded.

But IMO/IME you're right that a huge amount of drops aren't needed or effective. I've often wondered how effective a VLAT would be to box in a 200 acre fire with mud. I'd guess the answer there is "not very." For initial attack (aka most fires) maneuverability and ability to come around quickly, as well as being able to operate without a lead plane are real values.

You want to talk about a political waste of money other than stupid retardant drops? Look at the S. CAL USFS NVG helitack operation.

Heh, I worked on a SoCal NVG helitack crew in '77. - Rose Valley. Kind of sad when it collided with the one other NVG ship on a fire during night ops. I agree, it's stupid, but the public wants it.

It's nice that at least the screaming about using huge Russian air tankers has gone away.

Hey, have you heard of Stephen Pyne? A great (imo) wildfire historian. He was on a local tv news show recently talking about how VLAT use is largely political, expensive and often not effective. I'll see if I can find the clip.

Edit to link ^that news story, it's not bad:
http://www.kob.com/investigative-new...fires/4529793/

[XXX-er]

Amphibious airtankers (also known as ‘water bombers’) are able to “skim” water from lakes and rivers. The BC Wildfire Service’s "aerial fleet includes four Air Tractor AT-802F “Fire Boss” amphibious airtankers. These can drop water, foam or retardant on a fire and each is capable of skimming up to 3,025 litres of water in 15 seconds from over 1,700 bodies of water in B.C."

from their web site ^^ and they also use helicopters

yeah big planes are about the optics of being seen to do something so people who don't know anything about fighting fires will rant the gov should be using the martin water bombers and the people who do know something will say yeah but where you gona find a lake big enough to fill that thing close to the fire and they are not that great really

yup we often see the electra with a belly tank flying in and out of Smithers on a quick turn around

whats old I often fly in a turbo otter that is 61 ... just as old as i am

[Meadow Skipper]

^^^Old* DHC-3 Single Otters are cool, especially the radial ones. I've only seen them up north. Especially in SE AK.

* I guess they're all old.

[mecc69]

A large amount of delivered retardant is one thing, getting it in the right place at the right time is a whole 'nother thing. VLATs are great if the fire perimeter is in a long, straight line but you seem to have the background to know that doesn't happen very often, at least not where you can get crews in to work the retardant line. And retardant without boots on the ground to follow up is kind of retarded.

But IMO/IME you're right that a huge amount of drops aren't needed or effective. I've often wondered how effective a VLAT would be to box in a 200 acre fire with mud. I'd guess the answer there is "not very." For initial attack (aka most fires) maneuverability and ability to come around quickly, as well as being able to operate without a lead plane are real values.


Heh, I worked on a SoCal NVG helitack crew in '77. - Rose Valley. Kind of sad when it collided with the one other NVG ship on a fire during night ops. I agree, it's stupid, but the public wants it.

It's nice that at least the screaming about using huge Russian air tankers has gone away.

Hey, have you heard of Stephen Pyne? A great (imo) wildfire historian. He was on a local tv news show recently talking about how VLAT use is largely political, expensive and often not effective. I'll see if I can find the clip.

Edit to link ^that news story, it's not bad:
http://www.kob.com/investigative-new...fires/4529793/

I have a few of Pyne's books on my shelf. Not surprising, we have known for decades that tankers are most effective during IA. How many VLAT of large tanker vids have you seen where the tanker is dropping in the middle of no where. Or mid slope on steep slopes where no one will ever put line, just "to slow the fire down". Every year.

[ill-advised strategy]

A large amount of delivered retardant is one thing, getting it in the right place at the right time is a whole 'nother thing. VLATs are great if the fire perimeter is in a long, straight line but you seem to have the background to know that doesn't happen very often, at least not where you can get crews in to work the retardant line. And retardant without boots on the ground to follow up is kind of retarded.

But IMO/IME you're right that a huge amount of drops aren't needed or effective. I've often wondered how effective a VLAT would be to box in a 200 acre fire with mud. I'd guess the answer there is "not very." For initial attack (aka most fires) maneuverability and ability to come around quickly, as well as being able to operate without a lead plane are real values.


Heh, I worked on a SoCal NVG helitack crew in '77. - Rose Valley. Kind of sad when it collided with the one other NVG ship on a fire during night ops. I agree, it's stupid, but the public wants it.

It's nice that at least the screaming about using huge Russian air tankers has gone away.

Hey, have you heard of Stephen Pyne? A great (imo) wildfire historian. He was on a local tv news show recently talking about how VLAT use is largely political, expensive and often not effective. I'll see if I can find the clip.

Edit to link ^that news story, it's not bad:
http://www.kob.com/investigative-new...fires/4529793/

I was consistently impressed with the SEAT program at Salt Lake BLM in the mid 2000s when I was there. Seemed like in that cheatgrass they were able to hook a lot of IA fires with the SEATs. I was out before the VLATs too.

IMHO all fire aviation is amazing...including ATGS. I'm sure MS will be humble here, but even ATGS have to sit up there holding their lunch, and piss, flying in tight circles for many hours with a huge amount of responsibility. It's no small deal.

[bodywhomper]

We have an air attack base in town. The airport was used as the model for the cartoon movie. We usually see the S-2T air tankers flying. One of the pilots lives somewhere in my immediate hood. Apparently, he's an old guy with one of his big toes serving as his thumb for his throttle hand, discussed in the article linked below. Two years ago, he was stationed at the air base and had a chance to extinguish a fire in his hood with a single drop.... about 400 feet from my house! Very grateful.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...a2533/4245382/

[Meadow Skipper]

I was consistently impressed with the SEAT program at Salt Lake BLM in the mid 2000s when I was there. Seemed like in that cheatgrass they were able to hook a lot of IA fires with the SEATs.

SEATs (single engine air tankers - basically modified agriculture planes) are kind of awesome on small IA fires. They come low and slow, the pilots are experienced at low drops on specific targets, and you can set up a reload base on just about any farm road. And their crashes tend to be survivable...sometimes anyway.

...even ATGS have to sit up there holding their lunch, and piss, flying in tight circles for many hours with a huge amount of responsibility. It's no small deal.

Sometimes I think it was the hardest job to do well that I ever did. A lot of plates to keep spinning sometimes.

[bodywhomper]

https://youtu.be/6aILfg1KRcg

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Mr. Tackman? I once flew in his co-pilot seat point to point. I'm out of that game now but follow the wildfire news...

Really neat interview with him on fireaviation.com where he talks about overcoming the language barrier between him and the Chilean military pilots by "wagging" his hand back and forth to get the 747 and lead lined up.

That'd be Jamie Tackman.

[Meadow Skipper]

That'd be Jamie Tackman.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Yeah that's Jamie, all around bad ass, pilot, ex smoke jumper and pretty avid back country skier. I see and ski with Jamie a few time a week in the winter. Good people. I hadn't seen that, thanks.

[GoldMember]

This reminded me of this picture I had on my pc from a fire fight a few years ago. Yes, huge balls...

[MagnificentUnicorn]

This reminded me of this picture I had on my pc from a fire fight a few years ago. Yes, huge balls...

Was that the Eagle Creek fire near Leavenworth? I drove up Birch Mt. here during that fire and watch the DC10 making runs up Eagle Creek and they'd disappear into the canyon and then come shooting up over Derby Pass right in front of me. It was pretty cool. Look like the same terrain.

[GoldMember]

It was somewhere over in that area but this was from 3 or 4 years ago, IIRC. I don't remember which fire it was but was so impressed by the picture that I downloaded it. Pretty amazing flying.

[John_B]

If I remember right that photo was from the Carlton Complex in the Methow Valley in 2014. I can't remember who took the photo though, but I do remember seeing it on Facebook. The Methow had 2 DC-10s in 2014 and I believe only one in 2015 with the Twisp River fire. I do not know if they were flying on the Tunk Block fires in the Okanogan.

It was pretty fucking spectacular watching their flights.

[GoldMember]

^^ Yeah, I think you're right about that. I don't remember where the photo came from, either but it was pretty amazing. Would have been more amazing in person.

[bodywhomper]

They almost deployed the vlat to a fire near auburn, ca yesterday. It was stationed in Redding. They requested it and then called it off after good progress was made with the other air attack.

Tahoe area now has a super scooper cl-415.

[Meadow Skipper]

I recommend the Fire Bombers group on Facebook. Great pics.

[ill-advised strategy]

Sometimes I think it was the hardest job to do well that I ever did. A lot of plates to keep spinning sometimes.

Observing Jeff Kline work was like watching some sort of zen chess master....dude was just the most cucumber-calm tactician you could ever imagine up there....right down to the tone of his voice. You heard him calling shots and just felt like "this is all totally under control". Gil Dustin was like that too. UT-SLD was a real eye-opener for me after NM-TAD, as I'm sure you can imagine.

[TAFKALVS]

Apparently one of my neighbors has a video of a DC10 doing a run on the ridge immediately adjacent to my new house, flying about 75' above the ground. I'll try to get the video from him and post it here.

[Kirby]

A bunch of farmers (my brother's father-in-law included) in northern Alberta just finished restoring an old fire bomber PBY that they pulled out of a lake in NWT. Kind of a interesting story: www.savethecanso.com.

[The Tortoise]

Got to watch one of these run a dozen or so loops at the cottage. Our vantage point let us watch the the whole loop from scooping right as be passed us to unloading it at the end of the lake. It was so badass.



And a good friend flies this. She first flew as the lead plane/air traffic controllers and graduated to water bombers.